Ginat's Chat

[Ilanit]

I wanted to express how tranformative I found it to read the transcript of the cybermacro chat that Ginat conducted a few days ago. I had intended to be ther elive but when 4am struck Australian time, the hour got rhe better of me!

It sounded like it went very well.

It was a great turnout. I also wanted to acknowledge Gary for hosting it and organizing it and Klara for her enthusiam and efforts to make sure everyone knew about it. And I want to let Ginat know how much her openess and willingess to share impacted on my understanding.

It gave me a lot of cause for reflection. I had considered writing these reflections to the people involved privately but felt that in the spirit of the realisations that were mentioned that I may try to express them here.

The issues of non resistance that you mentioned in the outline of your experience, Ginat is something I grapple with a lot. I have been immersed in the field of transformative practises since my teens as I attmepted to hea and dabbled in many avenues in my attempts to heal juvenile diabetes for many years. I have learnt a great deal and realised a lot but I now feel that at the core of the inability to truly transform this condition - so far - is some deep resistance. I would welcome further discussion on this issue as I feel it is at the core of much lack of peace and separation throughout existence.

I also found that a great deal of judgement cropped up in my awareness of how healing should look and your reports of the treatment that you included - including the medical avenues highlighted that for me. Although I have always advocated that whatever treatment the individual chooses is okay - I did find that when it came to it that I had judgments and questions about why this option wasused. I guess it reflects my own resistance to allowing healing to occur in any manner and that I still want to control how healing will look or happen.

I loved the way that you conducted the caht and created a space for exploration.

I found the discussion of daying YES! to everything very topical.

One of the most amazing yet confrontational healing and consciousness fields I have been involved in....a very embracing and peaceful one but one that terrifies me on some level because I know it cuts to the very core of existence if one lets it and I am having trouble letting it....anyway - the Ishaya's Ascension. Which on the surface appears to be a meditation technique which is part of it however it also encompasses an understanding of how to achieve full human consciousness which seems to be our very birthright but which we run from.
Far from being a fluffy new age belief system, its very nature seems to be the dissolution of beliefs.

www.ishaya.org
www.theishayatradition.org


some books by MSI - First Thunder
Ascension
Enlightenment

all quite spectacular.

the reason I mention it here is that the idea of ebing able to say YES to everything was once mentioned by the modern day founder of it in the West - MSI - Maharishi Sadashiva Ishvaram (I hope I got his name right there.
I believe he said that if one could say yes to everything - EVERYTHING for a week then one would be free....

He also asked - "where in your Life are you compromising?"


So I am left ponderng -

how does one say YES to everything?

what do you do when you get to a place in yourself/become aware of a place where you cannot say yes but want to?

how does one surreneder EVERYTHING to the he Creator?

thanks for playing with me in exploration and awareness


xoxoxo

Ilanit

[Ilanit]

Here are some private discussions submitted here with persmision that discuss the topic of the first chat here....

Hi Benjamin,

Benjamin wrote:

> Dear Ilanit:
>
> Just read (skimmed) the chat session. I was impressed by the great variety of definitions of what macrobiotic is


yep

> and what illness is. However, I am rather shocked that an MB counselor who has guided hundreds of others through life and death issues would set a bad example


who are we to define what anyone should or shoult not eat. There are many factors at play - everyone has free choice

> by eating jelly doughnuts or binge on fried bread.


it was probably sourdough! ;-)

kidding - there are many factors - we can never know the full picture.

> Even more so, I am deeply disappointed

if we put people on pedestals or make them separate then we are bound to be disappointed.

did you read my comments and points to Ginat today?

> to hear that Ginat Rice panicked when she got breast cancer and submitted to surgery.

maybe it was a conscious choice. I don't think it would be my choice but people see things from different vantage points - we can't walk in anyone elses shoes - being macrobiotic is no guarantee of anything - of how one will respond, what the outcome of anything will be.

it is an understanding not a destination and we all want guarantees in life. HAving expectations and attachments seems to be the biggest source of stagnation and degeneration - that was her POINT

> Even more so, that she submitted to chemotherapy, when she knew damn well that is was destructive. On the other hand, she was right to diagnose her mental state correctly by saying that she was too arrogant and thought that she would never get cancer.


the root cause of all dis-ease is arrogance. We don't like that term in the West because of its connotations but Ohsawa the founder of modern macro saw it as separation from the laws of nature - thinking we are outside them or beyond them. That we are not the cause of our dis-ease - that is very different from blame though. We are not to blame - but we did create it - somehow - which is liberating because it means we can turn it around. In the west we are conditioned to believe we have no power - when in fact we have all power

> But she clearly lacks realy empathy when cannot feel the terror that her clients feel.

maybe that is true compassion. It is one thing to commiserate with someone and make their drama and dis-ease real. That gets no one nowhere fast. What is healing and transformative it to listen to where the person is at, hold the space and then be the invitation to change. That is true healing.

> There is no excuse for that. Period.


I never got that inerpreations from her by a long shot. Not at all. Quite the opposite.

> By the way, unless I am mistaken, I notice that you did not participate in the chat. Am I right?


it was 4am here. What's your excuse?! ;-)

actually I was still pacing the halls at 3am then feel into a sleep not long after and awoke at 5. next time!


xoxoxo

Ilanit
Hi Benjamin,

Benjamin wrote:

> Dear Ilanit:
>
> Well, let's be civil


was I not civil?!!!! :-)

I was just sharing my opinion - which is all that it is. You asked to have your opinion listened to about various matters and of course I respect that. I have had a lot of years to grapple with these issues and I was just sharing where I am at with it. I thought I could do that.

> about this and just agree to disagree.


sure.

> My attitude is simply that there is a world of difference between a person following an MB lifestyle

if people follow a mb lifestyle they will become sheople like the rest of the population. It is a lifestyle to be led, practised and embraced. Semantics? maybe? just a slight difference

> and a professional MB counselor who, essentially, advises others in matters of life and death.

yes that is a good point. One should be able to pracise what one teaches. I feel too that it is important to be honest with where one is at - I would rather that in a councelor that hidden binging which is a huge problem with long term too narrow interpreation of mb and which I have seen a lot of problems with - that is one reason for my excitement about Shiitake Jones - humour and joy needs to be rediscoverd and the problems need to be talked about - sometimes humour is a good avenue for that.

> If he or she cannot set an example for her own clients,


macor councelors - unless they are ill - should be eating a healing diet day in and out - there is a vast difference between a cleansing and healing diet and one to sustain certain lifestyle, pregnancy, growing children etc.

Ohsawa said honesty - will self and others is a prime marker of health - deep health. Of course that included honesty about one's relationship with jam donuts. Denial and restriction is the first step to dancing with the devil or with eating donuts in a cupboard.

it is an issue in the mb community. As is coffee and smoking!!! yes - I know - horrible - I make no excuses for that - even though it is not mine to make - there are many factors - historical and otherwise and it would be a lengthy discussion i am not up to - just thought I would point it out -

however NON of these factors - the human factors detract from the beauty and power that is MB - people cannot take that away from it - from the laws of nature!

and it is not an excuse to lose faith in the path or your own ability to heal.

> then he or she has failed.


I read a beautriful article by a mb coucelor who died of throat cancer about what healing is - Murry Snyder. It really showed me what healing can be. What is failure? what is healing? I know they are not the words you want to hear when you are healing - you want to hear all the good stuff. Of course - I do too - I am not denying that at all. But I also see from years of frustrated healing that to really get to the roots of it - one has to examine him/herself honestly and see th Truth as it is - not what they want to see.

> And I believe that Ginat Rice failed.


she is alive. She is happy. She is vibrant. She is thriving. She is open. She has learned. She has experienced.

have I failed because I need insulin injections to survive the day? Maybe. I did think so for a very long time. I still do I guess deep down. But I also realise that it takes whatever it takes. It is only us humans that say this is good. That is bad. God or whoever is in charge of this crazy place - doesn't judge things like that. I put things in categoried - natural fibres are good. Nylon is bad. But if God made everything - didn't he make the nylon too?! I know it is not logic in a way - and I am not buying nylon. Same as I am not buying Diet coke - but because I cHOOSE not to. Not because I am afraid of it or what it will do. Well that is what I like to think. Of course I have judgements on it and that is why if I did drink it it would probably affect me.

this way deeper than I wanted to get and covers so much. For another time - it doesn't matter. Lets just get well and happy!

> Of course, we are all human, and she discovered her fallibility and humanity and vulnerability in the course of her own life and death experience. I can have compassion for her. Of course. But I have also in the process lost some of my respect for her.

I am sure she can live with it!

> On the other hand, to be fair to her, if she has saved hundreds of people over the years by giving them expert MB advice, then I obviously must respect that and give her full credit for her good deeds.
>

Ilanit

Dear Ilanit:

Great comments by you, Ilanit. I am not sure which is more glorious or better defines what it means to be human: judging or not judging. Personally, I have always been called "judgmental" because I am, and I am just as convinced that "judging" is a key to a health and meaningful life as others are convinced that "non-judging" is. Naturally, both "judging" and "non-judging" have a long history and need to be qualified ad nauseaum, especially in practice, for it to make sense.

However, in the interest of moving on with our lives, let's agree to disagree. I understand where you are coming from, especially the Eastern, Buddhist notion of "non-judging", and I think you know where I am coming from. I firmly believe that neither "non-judging" nor "judging" is in itself necessarily a sign of health or disease. But let's leave this subject where it is. There is no real answer except, once again, to agree to disagree, both in terms of our moral and aesthetic position and practical attitude.

But your points are very well taken. I have deleted the post (both my original remarks and your comments) so that we can start with a clean slate. Let me just say that there is an obvious difference between empathy and compassion. Ginat Rice deserves our compassion as a vulnerable, all too human being. We all deserve that. But empathy is another thing altogether and has to be earned. By all of us.

Love,

Benjamin



Ilanit

Benjamin and Ilanit,

A huge huge bottom of my heart gratefulness for sharing that with all of us. And best of all, the wonderful honesty on both your parts.

Benjamin, you might want to come to the next chat Ginat hosts - it looks like she will be doing it the last Sunday of the month, and perhaps "speak" directly with her.

Are you also in Australia? I realize the time there is pretty difficult. I would love to hear more from you - or on these forums or tell us what's a good time for you to be on the chat. After all we're a flexible group, right?? We're mb!!

Also did you read Ginat's story? She also went through great fears of what the mb community would think, here a mb counselor getting cancer - but like alot of people who get sick and go through great "challenges," going into themselves and trying to sort it all out, and coming out of it with greater awareness of the bigger picture - it is awe inspiring. Not that I wish to go through that hell of suffering - hopefully I might be one of the lucky ones and be guided because of what others have learned. I am grateful to Ginat, I was one of her students before she got sick and now share a wonderful learning relationship with her after her sickness, where not only do I learn from her but think we learn from each other. What a wonderful adventure this life can offer us!!!!

I'm afraid after last night's chat I suffer a bit from lack of sleep, so my thoughts are not being formulated clearly. Both your posts deserve a clearer head than what I have right now. I hope to come back to respond to them at a later time.

But just know I was very moved and am grateful Ilanit that you shared this with us.

Klara