The spiritual value of extremes?

[Mara]

Do you think there is any spiritual value in, as Rumi says, "diving into the boiling sea of passion", spending some time eating like the rest of the world eats, red meat and sugar, cigarettes and coffee, enjoying the diverse and passionate traditions of human history?

Are emotional extremes and purely pleasurable activities valid teachers, too?

To me, there is nothing more spiritual than contemplating, and actively experiencing, the diversity and history of humankind, in the form of all of the pleasures and traditions that have survived from ages past.

I love to be in the middle of everyone and everything, taking it all in, all the stories, all the histories.

[Nancy]

When a person discovers how horrible red meat and sugar is for the body, I'd hope they wouldn't value this extreme type of eating (let's also throw in dairy food). Even when peoples bodies start breaking down from meat, sugar, dairy food, cigarettes, coffee, etc. as they reach middle age -- they are often still clueless and continue extreme forms of eating as they watch their own health ebb away. Many do not read, many do not absorb any news. Many are completely ignorant of the relation of food to the body and disease and/or health.

People who've already lived at the extremes, whether it be eating or lifestyle, often realize how their lives have been damaged and are seeking a healthy change to more moderate living. Many, while young, have already lived at the extremes of passion and eating. Many are dead of sexual diseases having given into unsafe passions and promiscuity.

Are emotional extremes pleasurable, even pleasure? Pleasure will be balanced by its opposite -- pain. Joy by grief. Anyone who has experience a broken heart or a heart attack has experienced the opposite of passionate love or reveling in too many cheeseburgers. Indulging in extremes doesn't quite build a powerful or productive life.

Personally, I like peace -- in my body and in my life.

Interesting how much Michio Kushi uses the metaphor of peace, regarding living the
macrobiotic way.

I think the extremes are a good teacher of what not to do.

My opinion,
Nancy

[garymill]

For some reason, reading this thread reminded me of a chapter in Jessica Porter's The Hip Chick's guide to Macrobiotics. She had been dumped by her boyfriend, and just did not want to feel the pain over it anymore, so she went to a nearby Mc Donalds, ordered a Filet O Fish, Coke and Fries. She liked the fact that for the moment she was like the rest of the world in being there, the familiarity of it all. After she ate the meal, as she said, she did not feel happy, or sad, just thick, and the breakup of her boyfriend just did not matter, she did not feel much at all.

Gary

[Mara]

Nancy -

I hear you all the way, and I think, in most situations, people have become slaves to certain mentalities and ways of eating which cause them unhappiness, yet they don't realize what they are doing wrong, not knowing the laws of balance, and so continue doing them, eventually creating sickness.

Yet, have not some of the great traditions of the world, such as the tango, been created from situations where great despair brought forth intense passion?

At times, I long to tango all night, fueled only by a few bites of rare meat, a few swallows of good wine, and a couple long drags on a cigarette.

Other times I am overwhelmed by memories of my childhood, and want nothing more than to go roller skating and stand in line afterward to buy candy, that sweet, extraordinary thing that comes in so many shapes and colors.

I realize, this is my freedom. This is also the tradition of the Western world- greatness achieved through suffering, artistic passions born from the European diet, walking all night through the city and enjoying the smell of fast food, bacon frying in the morning, a new day ahead.

This was the dream, before we became addicted, tired, our minds and senses dulled.

I appreciate all things much more now that my senses have been heightened by a macrobiotic diet. For me, macrobiotic eating has given me the health I was missing for a long time, and illness let me dream big, and now, I am enjoying the freedom to make these dreams come true.

My biggest dream of all, while I had CFS, was to be able to do the simplest things, those things that everyone else did, and to take part in society, for better or worse. And now that I can, every moment of my life has become nothing less than a dream come true.

[Nancy]

Mara,

If one does not know the 7/12, they are still in the dark about laws of the universe which encompass everything, including eating and body balance. Many fail at life, due to lack of knowledge. My paraphrase from the good book, which also speaks of moderation in all things.

Whether living moderately or not, I can almost guarantee that all will experience great ups and downs in their life. Life has a way of reaching in -where you live- and getting to you. By where you live, I literally mean anything can happen to anyone, even those hiding out from life in their houses. Any place where a person is sensitive and needs growth, an experience can come along to create chaos, passion, great despair, life cataclysms. No one is safe. Life is not safe.

Actually, people become bored with a boring life and call out to their creator for something to happen, they call out in angst for their needs, and they are heard. Watch out what you pray for.

No one escapes from the experiences of love or death, or both. We are born into families and create our own families as adults. Whether we like the members of our families or not, we are inbred with love for them, and need them. There is always joy, pain, and heartache, sweet or not, in the human experience.

I don't worry about passion, having had plenty. I worry about my work in the world and whether I am utilizing my life to the fullest of my expectations. I agree that greatness achieved through suffering is a dream. It is a dangerous dream that can end with a foreshortened, unproductive life. Vincent Van Gogh had no choice. He was an unbalanced person suffering from manic-depression. He cut his own ear off during a time of craziness. He saw brilliant colors. Manic depressives see brilliant colors during the manic state. It is the tip of the iceberg of what is hidden from us during normal states of mind. Yet, I don't want to take psychedelics, do you? In the end, it dissipates life. That's just one example of a tortured soul who produced brilliant art.

Life is here to experience in all its fullness. I wish more parents were creating healthy bodies in their children, so that health wasn't eroded so fast, or never learned and kept at all.

A lot of life is a delusion, a dream. A relationship that appears on the horizon, is not all that one thinks it will be when its done. Much of life is like that. Hold onto reality. Have good experiences in life everyday, excessive dreaming is only excessive dreaming. Just thoughts, everyone has them. Solid accomplishments are more rewarding.

It seems that you have accomplished restoring your health. Funny that this is not done by extreme measures at all, but very simply. The simpler, the better.

Nancy

[Mara]

Nancy,

No, I have no wish to take psychedelics; I did once, as a teenager, and never wish to again. It was far too intense an experience; I have found, through macrobiotics, I can have all the richness and intensity or lack of it in my life that I want without drugs, and none of the instability and fear and rollercoaster of that ungrounded state.

I think I disagree with you on the importance of dreaming, and making dreams come true, though. I am by nature a very grounded person, very practical. I think it is always importance to temper the impulses of the heart with the knowledge of the mind, yet never let either get too carried away.

Life is beautiful, regardless of what we choose to eat. But life's brevity, to me, makes it all the more important for me to enjoy a variety of experiences, particularly the ones infused with all the excitement and tradition of human history. Being a dreamer, I see more than just the material nature of things. I like to think I live in the moment, but can see that moment as containing all the richness of the past and the possibilities of the future, at once.

So, no, I don't wish to take drugs. But I do like to play with less harmful, more common substances. Most of all, I like to make contact with people from all walks of life, whether at the supermarket, coffee shop, or fish and chips stand by the waterfront. I like to feel that I am a part of the greater human experience, to eat as other people do, so that I will be trusted, so that I can blend in, and survive, wherever I may be. In this way, I like to think I'm following in the footsteps of many great explorers, writers, & anthropologists.

My dream is to do as much as possible while I'm alive, but to also be moderate. "Everything in moderation," someone once said, "even moderation itself."

So, while at home I am macro ( it is the cheapest, healthiest way to live!) I yet am unable, and do not wish to, resist the many pleasures of the world while I am off on some deeply satisfying, spiritual adventure in the city.

[Nancy]

"For some reason, reading this thread reminded me of a chapter in Jessica Porter's The Hip Chick's guide to Macrobiotics. She had been dumped by her boyfriend, and just did not want to feel the pain over it anymore, so she went to a nearby McDonalds, ordered a Filet O Fish, Coke and Fries."

Hi Gary,

The procedure above is well known in macrobiotic circles as, "balancing at the extremes".

The angst of being dumped, is balanced by the numbing (or well-being) of a meal, balanced at the extremes, at McDonald's. Fast food meals are so sedating, because the fast food makers have found a way to balance their "Combo Meals" at the extremes. They ARE balanced in the world of y/y, just at the extremes, which is not good for health. Usually, the yang of a huge caloric chunk of meat and cheese, is balanced with lesser servings of yin nightshade acidic fries, fried in yin oil, and a syrupy yin sweet coke (that can also eat through metal).

Thus the feelings are translated to reality, and the broken heart eventually causes a heart attack in the physical world!

Nancy

[Nancy]

"Most of all, I like to make contact with people from all walks of life, whether at the supermarket, coffee shop, or fish and chips stand by the waterfront. I like to feel that I am a part of the greater human experience, to eat as other people do, so that I will be trusted, so that I can blend in, and survive, wherever I may be."

Hi Mara,

This is known as "breaking bread" with other people, the most outstanding example being Jesus in the Upper Room with the Twelve Disciples. Eating with others and sharing food is a form of deep connection, on a spiritual level, as well as other levels. Dating is a ritual that often includes intimate conversation, a romantic dinner, and whatever comes afterward. A family style dinner, is a time of day to not only eat food, enjoy it, and nourish the body, but connect with conversation and communality with other family members. This is the wonderful blessing of sharing food, it also connects us on a deep soul level.

I watched an episode of "Wife Swap" where a very rigid, dogmatic Vegan, given to preaching her lifestyle, went to live with a Cajun family on an alligator farm in the Louisiana swamps. While the Cajun mom was open to fixing and eating raw salads ad infinitum for the California Vegan family, and politely listening to the preaching -- the Vegan mom spent her time rudely criticizing and making disgusted faces at the house, the business, and the food of the Cajun family. She attempted to change the Cajun dad and son to Veganism by force. Lengthy footage of the Cajun dad comforting his son during an inconsolable crying jag was filmed. She made her new family absolutely miserable.

One scene involved the Cajun son and dad taking the Vegan mom to a superb local Cajun restaurant. The son ordered fried clams for himself (one of my favorites) and frogs legs for the new mom (they didn't yet know she was Vegan). She turned down the frogs legs in disgust.

To everyone, what would you have done in the same situation?

I would've had an absolutely wonderful time enjoying the best of Cajun food and culture.



Nancy

[Mara]

Hi Nancy,

Yes, I too, would be thrilled to try authentic Cajun food! I'm purely an adventurer at heart, and yes, breaking bread, that is exactly what I mean.

Frog legs, hmm. I hear they taste like chicken. The most exotic food I've ever eaten was snails. Escargot, that is - very, very good. They were cooked in a sauce of wine, butter, and garlic.

I guess I just feel part of living in the moment is taking whatever food is offered you in that moment. You can't always be in control, and that in itself is, to me, a spiritual lesson. Sometimes, I like to get carried away in the dream, & let the beautiful, exciting moment control me.

Mara

[leahmays]

I hate vegans like that. They give the rest of us a bad name. I would decline, but politely. A lifestyle that's good for one person is not necessarily good for everybody. We'd all starve to death if nobody would eat anything but brown rice.

[Manymoons]

There is value in everything. All things are part of the universe. One must decide if the price to be paid is worth it. What is the price of eating meat? What is the price of eating white sugar and alcohol? What is the price of speeding on the freeway?
I think everyone is searching for themselves. Having oneself is the ultimate; fewer compulsions-fewer projections-more satisfied contentment. When one eats and lives in the extremes of yin and yang it is like being a point on the circumference of a spinning wheel. There is a lot of velocity but less strength than at the slow speed of the axle center. One will experience a stronger cetrifugal force on the perimeter and it is significantly harder to slow down or hold on to the center. The yang required to balance this extreme yin is equally extreme. If one is willing to pay the price, go for it. Remember that nothing in body or spirit goes unpaid for! Also remember our mistakes are our best teacher if we survive them. Perhaps one day I could show you my collection of square wheels and scars.