What is spirit, spiritual, spirituality?

[Bruce Paine]

Now-a-days, I hear people saying that if one doesn't believeve in a personification of spirit, one is not spiritual.

Can someone as simple as a Taoist who just believes in the yin yang energies (chi or ki) that manifest in all things coming from both the greatest infinity and also the most finite, be a spiritual person?

Or must a person believe in a deity to be truly spiritual?

Can anyone answer these questions in their own words?

Thank you, very much.

Bruce Paine

[MJS]

Well, I could try Bruce. I think that a spiritual person is someone who sees deeply and sees & believes in the spirit under the material surface of experience... And values this above all else. Spirit being the emotion, soul, the ungraspable, always changing, spark that makes us laugh or cry or sing or speak a certain way: the stuff which enlivens and connects us. (I don't know about, I haven't given lots of thought to survival of spirit after death. But I think I saw a ghost once.) If you can look at humanity this way, with love and curiosity, the world sparkles and even non-human things like great cities appear to have some kind of soulful power.

[qzw52]

Hi Bruce,

I would say, YES, it is possible for a Taoist to be a spiritual person of course. I would also say that it is possible for a person to be spiritual and not believe in a Deity.

Probably the most important thing is not to get too caught up in semantics. Infinity, to use a phrase in your post, is beyond the dualistic reality we live in so does not have constraints we have here in the physical such as time, space, matter and energy.

People often work from only the mental viewpoint. They need or want to put a label on everything. But things that are infinite cannot be adequately described only experienced. Words cannot describe a spiritual experience often enough.

So orthodox religions have their holy texts, deity or deities, and rituals that give people a certain comfort level so they can feel spiritual. And those whose beliefs don't fall into the societal norm religion or whose beliefs don't fall into any category at all are potentially then labeled as "unspiritual."

There is an old quote that I like. See if it works for you:

Enlightenment is not so much making it to the never never land through the secret passageway ~

It's more like getting off your tail and doing something.

Best,

Dave

Originally posted by Bruce Paine
Now-a-days, I hear people saying that if one doesn't believeve in a personification of spirit, one is not spiritual.

Can someone as simple as a Taoist who just believes in the yin yang energies (chi or ki) that manifest in all things coming from both the greatest infinity and also the most finite, be a spiritual person?

Or must a person believe in a deity to be truly spiritual?

Can anyone answer these questions in their own words?

Thank you, very much.

Bruce Paine

[Sherry]

Bruce,

First let me thank you for your response to my post regarding quitting smoking. I am "new" to microbiotics - and am quite certain I know nothing about what it is. If you would like to share with me, I would be interested in what you have to say.

Also, regarding being spiritual. I am a Christian. I believe in God as shared with us through the pages of the B-I-B-L-E. He is a triune being, and complete diety. We are spirit beings. We have a spirit that will live eternally. Share your thoughts with me.

Sherry

[Bruce Paine]

Sherry,

I will address your response to my response (about smoking, and about "microbiotics") in that forum.

You are a Christian and I am not, and like an automobile, one does have to believe in God to drive it, one needn't believe in God to practice macrobiotics but if it works for you, more power to you.

I am a non-religious Taoist (meaning that I believe in the yin and yang as a whole system of parts, but I don't believe in priests, temples, or deities that the religious Taoist believe in).

I see the universe as an evolving system, and the planet that we live on as both a living organism, and a subset of the greater universe, just as you and I are orgagasms that are both subsets of the universe and the planet that we live on.

I've lived more than fifty years, thinking and wondering about things and just recently after more than 30 years thinking that I was an agnostic or possibly an atheist, come to the conclusion that though I don't believe in a diety, I do see an order or a way of things in the universe, and therefore I do have something that I believe in and it works for me.

I see energy both visible and often invisible, and though one could possibly call some of that invisible energy spirit , I usually don't (though I don't believe in God and Spiriit (in the deified sense) I might sometimes use the language to make it easier to connect with people who do (like when saying gooodbye to a stranger who says "God bless you", as a courtesy I may say "God bless you" back to be courteous and diplomatic.

This is a forum where we discuss our knowledge and our beliefs and therefore it is an environment where it is acceptable (even encouraged) to be forthright about our knoledge and beliefs.

So I don't believe in a deity and have no belief in an eternal life, though I do believe that if something that I say or do, inspires others and might be found to be useful by someone and that is passed along from one person to the next even after I die and am no more, that something of me is alive, so the people who have lived before us and have contributed many good and great things to our present and possibly our future, are in part alive through our rememberence, and so, in that way they live and continue to do so.

Imagine walking through a field and stumbling or something and then bending over, and finding this edge of a ceramic pottery sticking out of the ground, and so digging it out you find a pot that you then take home and clean off and then sometime later you take it to an expert that tells you where it originally came from and maybe even who mmade it and if you find out about this person, then they come back to life somewhat through you and if you pass the pot on to someone else, then that extends the life of that potter even some more.

That to me is an example to life afer death.

Another example, is that a child comes into the world, grows up to become an adult, has a child who grows up to become an adult who has a child and so on and so forth and the experience that each person has that the share with another that then is passed along, that is also the continuence of that life, that energy, that spirit, if you would.

You can believe that when you die that you go to either go to heaven or hell, and I can believe in the continuation of energy from one person to the next, and in some way they are similar, and in other ways they are not

Try considering a life where you don't pass anything good along and you just keep it all to yourself.

No?

So my point is that, the continuance of those good things that have come to us from the past and that we pass to the future might have as much meaning to someone like myself than your believing in God, the Bible, and the everlasting life that you believe that you will receive for your faith.

Thank you, very much.

Bruce Paine

[Sherry]

Bruce,

Thank you for your candor. I believe we can pass on good to others. So at least we agree on one point. As far as God, Christ, heaven and hell. I believe Christ did pass on to all who believe in Him eternal forgiveness by His life, death, and resurrection. So --- another point of agreement as far as passage of good things. Thanks again --- Sherry

[Roy Collins]

Spirituality and belief in Deity are two separate issues. You can be the most "religious" person in the world and have total "faith" in a Deity and his/her universal laws and still not be spiritual.

Spirituality as it is used in the common vernacular, has more to do with higher awareness, cosmic consciousness, unity of all living and non-living things. Hence, you can be a highly spiritualy evolved person and not believe in a Deity.

Read Paul's letter to the Corinthians " I may have the all the faith to move mountains, and have the gift of prophecy, and know all the inner secrets, but if I do not have LOVE I am nothing."

You and I, Bruce have a long way to go...

In peace, Roy

[lighthouse25]

The Bible says "I am the way the truth and the life..."

I have been a Christian all of my life, and for me there is no other path but this. God is love and I totally agree with Sherry regarding him passing on this love to all those who believe in Him. As far as saying "God Bless You" when someone else says it, why repeat it back if you don't mean in let alone know what it means biblically? Just to be courteous and diplomatic you put - but please elaborate on this!

Just asking?

[Bruce Paine]

lighthouse25,

I feel it is a friendly guesture to Christians to repeat back to them what they have said to me.

If they say "God Bless You!", I might say "God Bless You!" back.

If they say good bye or adios, or "I love you", I might say the same thing in return.

It's a thing of courteousness, respect, and wishing them well.

I don't usually think that when someone says "God Bless You" to me that they are trying to covert me or offend me by using expressions that are not usually part of my belief system, but instead in their way trying to make a meaningful connection while wishing me well.

What do you think the expression "God Bless You!" means and is it always the same, with the same belief and intention behind it?

Years ago, when I was searching for what I believed in, I got defensive when people said "God Bless You!" because I felt like they were trying to push their beliefs on me, but now I just see it as an expression of caring and kindness.

So what would you rather that non-Christians do?

Would you rather that they return the "God Bless You!" to you, would you rather they say something else, would you rather they say nothing, or what?

I was raised with a Bible (from ages 7 to 18) in my room, a grandmother sending me glossy Christian holiday magazines every Christmas, a non-believing father who required me to go to the churches of my friends (I almost commited to Lutheranism at age 13), and at age 9 I had to stay in my room until I wrote the entire 10 Commandments 1,000 times by that same non-believing father, so you don't need to worry if I've had enough exposure to Scripture.

One thing that I'm starting to ask Christians to do now-a-days is to either explain fully what each sentence of Scripture that they quote to me means to them personally, or to not quote the Scripture to me, at all.

Do you think that's fair?

Thank you, very much.

Bruce Paine

[lighthouse25]

Bruce,

Adios, or "I love you" is not that same as "God Bless You!" It is more than just a "jesture," as a Christian these words mean allot to me and should by no means be taken so lightly. God Bless You, in everything you do, everywhere you go and throughout life.

The word "bless" means to bestow favor or praise and "God" is the creator of heaven and earth is of course in front. So saying "God bless you" is very a sacred thing to me!

When you say it to someone like me (a Christian) “God Bless You” what God are you referring to mine or yours?

You can repeat back what you feel. There is nothing wrong with wishing someone well out of courteousness and respect, hey, I think that it is wonderful! I'm not trying to convert you or anyone one this board I'm just speaking to you as a Christian just as some people speak to me as a Buddist, Hindust, etc.

There really isn't what I would perfer of what non-Christians to do. Everyone seems to use Christian terminology these days, it's just that I don't understand it when a person of another religious background for instance a Muslim, comes up to me and said "isalamalakim" if I was a Muslim I would say "lakimmasalam," but I wouln't because I am not musleum nor do I truly understand the term. I would just say I'm not Muslim and God is my strength and my redeemer, (in a nice way of course)!

You can say whatever you feel, it's your choice, say something else, say nothing, or whatever, it's up to you!

Hey, I said nothing about you not having any exposure to the Bible whatsoever, I apologize if you think I did. I just have a habit of quoting scriptures which I feel need to be said at that time, just as any other religous person whould do.

If you are starting to ask Chrisitians now-a-days to quote Scriptures and to explain them fully what each sentence means thats fine, but you should also do the same, in your own words. I've seen on a previous message you've posted where you have quoted some words from taoist or buddist (not sure) and you refered to a website to see what it means!

Anywho, in the future I will definitely do my part regarding biblical scriptures without any problem and ask that you do the same.

Yeah I think that's fair!

[Bruce Paine]

lighthouse25,

Okay, so "God Bless You!". is a very sacred expression to you but it appears to me that many to most Christians use it to complete a communication with friends and acquaintances, kind of like saying, "Good Luck".

The POTUS (President of the United States) always says "God Bless", when finishing addressing the public.

You as he, must realize that every one that you bestow your God's blessing on, do not believe as you do.

MI feel that, many believe in a "Creator", many others don't, and even, many others don't know what to believe.

Christians appear to me to be the most aggressive believers in the world, having gone far away to fight wars and conquer peoples in other places in the name of "God" and "Christ".

I find it interesting, that, the only apparent evidence of "God" communicating with humans is written about in the "Holy Bible" and other "sacred books" of other religions, which were all written by humans.

"God", according to Christians (and certain other believers) apparently has had an active interest in all people, but the way I see it, hasn't been active recently, showing himself to humans like described in earlier days in the Holy Bible.

A skeptic could easily consider that either "God" has forsaken his people, is too busy in other parts of the universe, or does not exist.

A non-religious Taoist, I see life evolving and a infinite universe constantly materializing and dematerializing, but I don't see a supreme personality behind it all, though I do see many people expressing their belief in that universal personality.

So, I imagine who I'm referring to when I reply to someone who bestows upon me a "God Bless You!" is their "God", when I return a "God Bless You!" to them.

If anyone requires that I believe in their "God' and possibly the same way when they express their "God Bless You!" to me, I feel that they are being just too pushy with their belief system.

I feel that either a believer gives and receives a "God Bless You!" without question and without determining the belief and faith of the person one is bestowing it upon or receiving it back from, or it's meaning diminishes (like conditional love).

When I talk about people quoting "Scripture", I'm not just referring to you but to anyone who comes to the macrobiotic discussion sites with an attitude that suggests that either everyone is already a believer, or that they should be.

When I talk about what I spiritually believe, I'm not expecting others to change their beliefs to mine but instead hope that they find within me certain qualities which they also have within themselves, as I try to do with them.

Besides seeking to connect with others, I'm also looking for solutions to problems, and I come to these macrobiotic discussion groups to try to share with others with what I know, and also, help the macrobiotic community grow.

I don't need to see everyone in the world become a yin/yang quoting macrobiotic, before I can rest, but instead, I wish to see macrobiotics establish a big enough foothold in the world that it can become and continue to be easily accessible to any and everyone who wishes to have access to it.

I like to say "I don't need for everyone to become macrobiotic, in a matter of fact I would be happier if one seventh of the World's population were macrobiotic, but I would like everyone to know about it, so that if they ever need it, they will know what it is and how to get it and use it for their own and everyone's benefit"

So to me, macrobiotics is about sharing, not pushing.

I moved into this house (where I am presently staying) because it was available with a gas stove, close to my work, and the owner/housemate was/is receptive to natural foods.

Since I've been here I've cooked almost every day and this guy has been eating more and more of my food, has quit drug use and he has gotten back into his meditation, big time.

I did not push it at him but he decided to stop using psychoactive drugs and made the house and property a drug-free zone shortly after I moved in, and stopped eating eggs soon after, and quit drinking black tea months afterwards and his life and mission has come a lot clearer to him.

I feel that if we take a chopping wood and carrying water approach to macrobiotics by practicing and sharing with those around us when they inquire, then the situations will improve gradually, and with longer lasting results.

On the other hand if we try to evangelize or prozelytize everyone we meet, many will get defensive and most will never show an interest.

So the point I am making is that we can either take the peaceful, gentle approach to change or we can take the more aggressive, pushy form of change.

And I choose the more peaceful approach.

Do you understand what I am saying?

If you believe in something and it contributes to your life and it's betterment, you will improve and others will become attracted to you and wish to emulate you.

But if you have a belief that you want others to have and you just push it at them, most people will back away and avoid you and you will be left with just yourself and those that believe as you do.

Most of the time, "nature" changes gradually and provides changing circustances that humans can work with.

Humans on the other hand often are aggressive, doing destructive things to "nature" and then are surprised that "nature" does some destuctive things to humans.

I believe, that one can live a peaceful, balanced, conscious life and life will maintain it's balance and when it goes out of balance, you can sidestep or work with the un-balance until it comes back into balance, again.

Thank you, very much.

Bruce Paine

[lighthouse25]

Bro. Bruce,

I've never been aggressive or confrontational, just speaking my mind, I apologize if you think that is my demeanor.

You said: "I believe, that one can live a peaceful, balanced, conscious life and life will maintain it's balance and when it goes out of balance, you can sidestep or work with the un-balance until it comes back into balance, again." I concur big time, I hope you don't mind me using your words again one day.

I'll be honest with you I love some of the Buddhist sayings and teachings. They make allot of since and some even coincide with scriptures in the bible!

As a Christian I believe that war is wrong and its one of the 10 commandments as you know, Thou shall not kill! I don’t agree with the this whole war thing, but I can't speak for other Christians either. You know I even interpret that scripture as referring to all things. A friend of mine who owns a vegan restaurant near the beach says I don't condone any religion where you must kill! My answer was I believe that the commandant which says thou shall not kill, means nothing should be killed; cows, pigs, cats, etc – anything living which is why I’m vegan. But you see however some Christians probably won’t agree with what I’m saying either about my interpretation of that particular scripture. Myself as a Christian I always promote peace - as a matter of fact one of my favorite hymn is: "There will be peace in the valley for me.”

I see your point and I think it's great!

God Bless You! Yeah, I'll take it like a grain of salt!

[Bruce Paine]

Originally Posted by lighthouse25

Bro. Bruce,

I've never been aggressive or confrontational, just speaking my mind, I apologize if you think that is my demeanor.

You said: "I believe, that one can live a peaceful, balanced, conscious life and life will maintain it's balance and when it goes out of balance, you can sidestep or work with the un-balance until it comes back into balance, again." I concur big time, I hope you don't mind me using your words again one day.

I'll be honest with you I love some of the Buddhist sayings and teachings. They make allot of since and some even coincide with scriptures in the bible!

As a Christian I believe that war is wrong and its one of the 10 commandments as you know, Thou shall not kill! I don?t agree with the this whole war thing, but I can't speak for other Christians either. You know I even interpret that scripture as referring to all things. A friend of mine who owns a vegan restaurant near the beach says I don't condone any religion where you must kill! My answer was I believe that the commandant which says thou shall not kill, means nothing should be killed; cows, pigs, cats, etc ? anything living which is why I?m vegan. But you see however some Christians probably won?t agree with what I?m saying either about my interpretation of that particular scripture. Myself as a Christian I always promote peace - as a matter of fact one of my favorite hymn is: "There will be peace in the valley for me.?

I see your point and I think it's great!

God Bless You! Yeah, I'll take it like a grain of salt!

lighthouse25,

Can you identify the other twenty-four lighthouses, and where they are located? Here's a big clue:

( http://www.maine.com/lights/www_vl.htm#pages ).

Though I admire many of Buddha's teachings and have learned some of the techniques such as meditation and chanting sutras like:

Han Nya Shin Gyo (The Heart Sutra)
( http://alextech.tripod.co.jp/japan/h...nyasyngyo.html http://www.zendo.com/heart.html ),

I am more of a Taoist (which I rediscovered rather recently), as yin and yang guide my way:

( http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/lao.html )

and the Tao Te Ching
( http://www.taosculture.org/English/H...taoteching.htm ).

Roy Collins, another Taoist (but one with much more experience and practice) has written a book called "Fire Over Heaven:On the Origin, Interpretations, and Evolution of the Yin/Yang Dialectic and I Ching" ( http://www.cybermacro.com/xlibris.html ).

If you wish to know about the I Ching (Book of Changes), try these sites:

( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...9563?vi=glance http://www.iging.com/).

The expression might be to "take it with a grain of salt" and unrefined seasalt might be the salt of choice.

Thank you, very much.

Bruce Paine

[lighthouse25]

Hey Bruce,

Lighthouse is just a nickname for me at my church home! 25 represents the number of years that God has shed his mercy on me (my age).

I'll pick up some of that unrefined seasalt. Thanks for the tip

[Johnnyzen]

Originally Posted by lighthouse25

The Bible says "I am the way the truth and the life..."

I have been a Christian all of my life, and for me there is no other path but this. God is love and I totally agree with Sherry regarding him passing on this love to all those who believe in Him. As far as saying "God Bless You" when someone else says it, why repeat it back if you don't mean in let alone know what it means biblically? Just to be courteous and diplomatic you put - but please elaborate on this!

Just asking?

No other path? Many paths, one way.