Reincarnation, or Something Else?

[Bruce Paine]

The idea and belief in reincarnation keeps being bandied about here and elsewhere.

If the zillion or so souls came from a zillion or so previous souls souls, then when did it start and with how many souls?

There are those who would have us belief that we (humans) reincarnated from other kinds of creatures, and that they all reincarnated from other creaturs and so on and so forth, by that would imply that time began with the same amout of souls.

If the creator of the universe is one soul and all that is including the zillion souls, how was that accomplished?

Certainly the argument that one human became two and then multiplied into so many trillion human (including the so many billion in existence today) would seem to conflic with the argument of the same sum of souls now equals the sames sum of souls in the beginning (you would also have to have started with the same sum of other creatures as well).

For myself, I like the idea that everyone I touch and/or influence, who in turn touches and influences someone else is a form of spirit being carried on.

Some of that sprituality is through parenting, others through discourse, friendships, teaching and other forms of communication.

But maybe that is just too mundane.

Maybe talking of the supernatural is the only way some of us can capture others attention and imagination.

Thank you, very much.

With warm regards, love, and peace.

Bruce Paine

[Roy Collins]

Hi Bruce. I don't have much experience with reincarnation
and its workings but the infinite universe is really quite large and I suppose that there is enough space for all these souls to congregate and make their agendas for future lives. Its just taht we don't know how. I think perhaps that the idea of evolution may be just as dificult to comprehend as creationism for some theologians. K. Miller has a wonderful book on this subject titled Finding Darwin's God, which gives both sides of the agrument.

My "feeling" about spirituality however is something more than parenting, communicating, teaching, discoursing, etc. It is more about a cetain frame of consciousness and realization of onesess that comes across in the "way" an enlightened person communicates with others and the environment. It is total gratitude for life and having the ability and fortitude to help maintain the balance of life in all realms of the natural world.

The so-called "spiritual" people that I have thus encountered in my life have been few, and those who claim to the most spiritual enevitably end up being the biggest dualists and frauds with bloated egos and their own agendas. They are ones that are constantly putting others down in order to build themselves (and their ideas) up. They are usually unable to justify their stance and end up bullying and chiding others who don't see there way. Isn't great that we are all so unique and each have something different to offer one another? Please continue to have and open mind and giving heart and not worry too much about the how's and why's of our lives but more to to accept and enjoy all of these differences.

In peace, Roy

[Denise]

I would like to say that I am sorry some of you have had bad experiences with the "spiritual" people in your lives. They must not have truly been spritual, in a Godly way. That is a shame. Because when you have accepted Christ into your life He truly changes it forever. You are no longer the same. He makes you whole, He gives you purpose, and He gives you blessings beyond belief if you just follow Him. There is a verse in the bible that says narrow is the way, and few find it. It is talking about people going to heaven. If anyone would like to know more, I would love to tell you. It sounded strange to me 6 years ago, but now I can't imagine my life without Jesus. It also says He is the way,the truth, and the life. And no one comes to the Father (in heaven) but through Jesus. So although it is nice that there are so many different people and beliefs, there is only one true way to get to heaven . Denise

[Klara]

Denise,

Nice that you feel strongly in your beliefs. But not nice that you feel only your way can be the right way. I don't want to create battles on this site as it's wonderfully supportive with much much to be learned, but something in me cringes to read posts like yours on a site like this one.

I have similar experience with non-mb people wanting them to feel as I do, and I just can't understand why they don't. It widens us when we can accept others having their own life, and we don't have to feel we must push our ways on others.

I hope you understand.

Klara

[Denise]

Hi Klara~
I am truly sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent. This is indeed a wonderful site, but when I saw this forum and what was being written in it, it seemed to fit. I wanted to clarify something. I am not saying my way is the only right way, (and it is not "my" way, it is the way Jesus provided for us) but it is indeed the way to heaven. The Bible is the most precise and historically correct book on earth and if one studies it, one would begin to see that it is true. I can imagine that you may disagree with that. If you are open to new things like you say you are, I would highly recommend the book, "The Case For Christ." It is relatively short but extremely powerful. It will show you exactly why you can believe Christianity and how it is proven over and over (there truly is real evidence) that Jesus was who the Bible says He was and is, where as no other religion has such evidence as this supporting their truth. I can't expect you to read this and say, "oh"! But I am going to pray that you get a chance to read this book and since you sound like an intelligent person, I will also pray that you will receive it the way it was intended. Denise

[Klara]

OY, Denise, you don't get it!!!! I love my religion - I also think it has wonderful Truths - but I am NOT going to try to persuade any of you to adopt what I find most amazing - nor do I wish to have your prayers on such an agenda as you have.

I am FINE with my religion, more than fine. I'm proud and would love to shvitz here and tell you some great stuff, but I won't. Some of these spiritual endeavors do seem universal and are thought provoking - but some just do NOT fit in with my own spiritual path. Please feel free to continue on your path, but again I repeat, do NOT pray on my behalf - I have my very strong beliefs and my own very strong prayers. I am proud to be part of the Jewish people, and would never ever have it any other way. I know it's a big no-no to create flames, and my apologies to everyone on the site if this is what is starting. I guess you can tell I fell strongly on this.

I do NOT need or want JC for me to reach my G-d. I have a direct line.

Klara

[Denise]

sorry Klara, I was referring to the God who created the universe. It says in numerous places in the bible that no one comes to the Father but through Me (Jesus Christ). That is what I was referring to. Denise

[Manymoons]

Denise

What is the Yin/Yang nature of Jesus, --Christianity----and how does He/it effect one's balance?

I ask this in keeping with the focus of this group.

Manymoons

[Denise]

Hello Manymoons,
I am sorry that I do not know enough about macrobiotics to answer that in the terms you are looking for. Maybe I have made a mistake becoming a member on this site because I am finding there are things that I do not understand. I thought it was all health related as far as food intake. I do not understand the concepts of yin/yang although I would like to learn. I was trying to find where on the site it would explain that but haven't gotten far with it yet. I can tell you though, in my own words, that having Jesus in your heart transforms you into new life. It is a wonderful everlasting peace that will never leave you as long as you do not reject Him and His truth. It is hard to know where to start trying to explain to someone, as I do not know your backround. I guess a good question would be "do you read the bible or believe it is true"? I became a Christian 6 years ago and every day that goes by, I receive confirmation through the Holy Spirit that Jesus is indeed the truth, the light, and the way to heaven and that His Holy Spirit was given to us to help us through this life on earth. That is alot of information and maybe not what you were looking for, but maybe so... Thanks for sharing. Let me know how you feel about this. Denise

[Manymoons]

Denise

Becomimg a member is no mistake. The only mistake we make generally is to not make any effort-ever. There is no guarentees this is what you anticipated however.

This is a health related site, yes! The philosophy behind it however differs from typical western understanding. It is not strictly pragmatic and considers one's over all balance (in terms of yin/yang)-as related to food initially, but can not end there and must encompase all aspects of one's life.

Yin/yang is the primary referrence that MB is about. Yin/yang do not exist as things in themselvs but are a kind of an algabraic formula to establish relationships between things--hot/cold-male/female-centrifical/centripital etc.
The premise is that the universe manifests its self in complimentary and antagonistic tendencies (yin/yang) in its infinite and endless progression of change. Health then is not merely the mechanical arrangement of nutrients, but one's alignement with the flow of the universe at large.

I was reared as a Chritian and graduated from a Christian high school. I can estimate then, the the hardest thing you may have throuble "grogging" is the idea that a living human being is a balance of body and spirit. These two can not be seperated--except in death--corps and ghost. Christianity considers the body as less then spirit, which is to say in MB terms that yang is less than yin. This is a problem since yin and yang do not exsist exclusive of the other.
Where there is yin there is yang--where there is yang there is yin.

I applaud your sincerity and graciousness. You have arrived at the place you are because of what you have expirienced in life so far, by your reactions to it. This is respected! You will find this site interesting and MB challenging.
Expect compliments and antagonisms---it is yin and yang!

I am being pressured by the yang so I must be off to work.
To your health and wholeness-to my health and wholeness

Manymoons

[Denise]

Hello Manymoons~
This is very interesting. I will have to re-read what you have written to really grasp what you have said. But I have many questions for you thus far. Maybe this is not the appropriate site and I should be replying personally (?) But you say you were raised as a Christian, and you are saved (is that a correct assumption?) So how do you feel about that now? Do you still consider yourself a Christian, following the teachings of Jesus?
This has really struck me- when you were explaining the concept of yin/yang, I relate that to the constant war between good and evil on this earth (is yin positive and yang negative or something like that? just guessing). Our bodies can be considered yin/yang too, because our flesh has a sinful nature, but we have the gift of the Holy Spirit (if we have accepted Jesus) that was given to us as the Lord ascended unto heaven, would you agree with that?
So I am not having a hard time understanding this, unless I am missing the whole point. (that happens sometimes!) I am curious to hear your thoughts on this. Denise

[Manymoons]

Denise

I live by a very strict moral code but can not say that I am a Christian. As for "being saved", I have to question-"from what?".

The first yin/yang that most people identify (at least from my own expirience) is: good and evil. I suspect that this is because it represents the most extreme polarity that people are commonly conscious of. This is a fair enough assumption but can have a broad range of implication depending on what premise one is working under. You acknowlwdge a "constant war between good and evil". This reflects your perspective which is in accord with that of Christianity as well as many other religions. This also implies a constant war between yin and yang, which can certainly be the case if yin and yang are seperated and very far apart. When yin and yang are integrated and very close together----there is no war or conflict. At that point there is balance and harmony in a most complimentary way. This is the essence of what MB eating and living is about.

One must keep in mind that yin or yang do not exist exclusive of the other. They are always present with the other, but in varying degrees and proportions. I guess one could say this is true of good and evil as well. How would one discern good if there was no evil and conversely discern evil if there was no good. While they are antagonistic they also compliment one another!

The original definition of sin means to "fall short". I believe this is from the Greek(?). Sin there fore may well imply a falling short of the balance we as human beings in this universe are capable of achieving. If the flesh is of a sinfull nature then so must the spirit be, if one's premise is yin/yang. A major problem I found with Christianity is that it fundamentally seperates yin and yang. Earth is bad- heaven is good. God is good-devil is bad. Spirit is good-body is bad. This imlpies that yin is good-yang is bad and that the bad must be eliminated to achieve "victory". If one eliminates yang, yin is also eliminated. Eliminate yin, and yang is also eliminated. They are the right and left hand of the same body.

Christianity as a religion implies a need to eliminate the yang in favor of the yin exclusively. There is religion of the opposite polarity as well, but may not be acknowledged as such, were the yin is eliminated in favor of the yang. Consider our own western contemporary culture were the biggest car, house
or other gizmo is given more credance than than justice, honesty, integrity etc. Yes there is war and conflict, but the solution rests squarely on our own shoulders. It is our own balance, as individuals that needs to be integrated in body and spirit. We digest and transmute our own food with our own organs, think with our own minds, walk on our own legs---no one can do it for us. It is our own responsiblity to be or not to be.

A little something to ponder.

Meanwhile I think that I will move my yang and apply some yin to the landscape around my house. (I am going to take my body outside to mow the lawn so that the yard reflects that someone cares. Whooa!--could this be a religious expirience,--or what?)

Manymoons

[Denise]

hi... I am curiuos but confused about much of what I am reading. I would like to answer your question though. You said, saved from what? When you were younger did you read the bible and believe it to be true? I mean, did you really study it?
I guess the first thing that made me wonder about my existence and purpose is how did we get here and where did this world come from? It states in the bible that we need only to look around and see all of the things that He created. There is proof everywhere. This big bang theory (and evolution I might add) has no logic to it whatsoever. God indeed created the universe, and he created man and woman. He then sent His Son Jesus to this earth to walk in it to try and teach people about Him and His heavenly Father.
When He was crucified, He was paying the price for our sin and everyone elses. It says that all we have to do is acknowledge Him that He is Lord, and that He died for us. If we confess this and ask for forgiveness we are assured a place in heaven one day.(we are "saved" from eternal suffering). It says very clearly that when we leave this earth and come face to face with Him, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. He will look at us and say one of two things: well done good and faithful servant, or go from here, I never knew you.
Do you believe there is a heaven and hell? I am just asking because some people do not.
If you study the old and new testament in the bible, you will see that everything (not most, but everything) that was predicted came true later in time, including every detail. Everything they predicted about Jesus before He was even born came to be true in the new testament, which starts with His birth. If you would like, I can find numerous verses in the old/new testament that show this over and over.
There is hard evidence that the Bible is true and accurate. It is so amazing. And when you have asked Jesus into your heart you know He is present and it is the most powerful peace you will ever know.
It still seems to me that the concept of yin/yang can still be applied to us, even if we are Christian. Yin and yang are not separated at all, if I am understanding this. If it was, it would be much easier.
The more I think about this the more confused I get. But I hate to see you dismiss yourself as becoming a Christian just because you are convinced of the balance that must be achieved. I think it is great that there is so much out there that most people don't even begin to ponder, but Christianity is an ever lasting truth that we will benefit from for eternity. When we are dead, it isn't going to matter if we believe in yin or yang.
Well I may be stepping on controversial ground. But I honestly believe that if you will allow me to share the references in the bible that prove Jesus is who He says He is, and you see that time after time the predictions all came to be true and are completely accurate, you will be amazed. (maybe???)
~Denise

[Manymoons]

Denise

I have studied the Bible a great deal, and not lightly.

The bible and the Christianity that is justified by it, is built entirely on the acceptance that God created the universe, where in is the flaw that prevents me from considering it of much relavence. If the universe was necessarily created by God because it had to come from somewhere, then where did God come from---and then where did the God that created that God come from.
An endless chain is established that goes nowhere. I can only conclude therefore that the universe has always been and will always be. I am a product of that universe and therefore subject to the limitations of that universe which means the princple of yin/yang. There exists no one or no thing that can substitute for my living my own life in the universe of which I am a part. I can go with the flow or against it, and pay the price accordingly. Since I am a part of that universe, all of it is at my disposal and all that I need is available. I can however chose to resist or blend. That is my moral quest.

Night follows day-winter follows summer and so death follows life, Life also follows death as day follows night. There is no final end. The universe is infinite and being part of it, so am I. The universe constantly changes and so MUST I. All that I or anyone has is the moment. To be in the moment is the most yang condition at which point the yin can also be. The body and spirit can only be united in the moment. Every point beyond the moment is a yinnizing spiral of disinteration, impotence and disease. I am here, I am now,
nothing more, nothing less. Christianity is focused on a reward at some point in the future rendering the present impotent. This is what I mean when I say Christianity rejects the yang. By so doing it also necessarily rejects the yin.
What then is left?

Controversy is yin/yang dance of balancing
Manymoons

[Denise]

Hi Manymoons! I have just now read your reply. I thought that if anyone replied to a post you would be notified by email and since I wasn't, I did not know you wrote back. I guess in order to see who has replied you go directly to that forum(?)
Well, I don't really know how to reply to what you wrote. I guess I just try and make things simple, and ever since I accepted Jesus, He has made it that way. He directs my path and I can feel His presence, and I believe what the bible says as far as how important it is to have a relationship here on earth in order to be with Him and the Father for eternity one day. Did you have that at one time, and have now rejected Him? There is just black and white on this, as you well know, you either accept Him or reject Him. So where do you stand now, and where do you think your soul will go once you leave this earth? I do not know exactly where it is, I will find out, but the bible talks about us not having all the answers, that we will see one day. (I am referring to your wondering about where did God come from...) and that it is a matter of trust.
Denise