Long-time macros getting sick -- why?

[Rick]

Being fairly new here, I was browsing some of the earlier messages and came across one that mentioned "the increasing incidents of cancer, heart disease and now osteoporosis that is afflicting the community." Reading this struck a chord in me. With Aveline's tragic death a few years ago, and a number of other macrobiotic folk getting sick, I've been wondering what's going on. What are some of the factors involved that have led to some macrobiotic people getting osteoporosis, cancer, heart problems, etc? Has this been discussed here? Though no one ever said that macrobiotics can 'guarantee' good health, it's nevertheless been distressing to this long-time (but off and on) macrobiotic practitioner (I started in 1972) that there has been much more illness than I would expect considering what we were all being taught back then.

Perhaps it's in part that the physical and natural environment has become much more toxic than it ever has been, and in combination with the stressful lives we are all living from being in such a dog-eat-dog capitalist society it's produced a toxic condition in our (and the world's) bodies/souls/hearts/minds that no combination of diet, lifestyle and spiritual practice can really buffer or heal adequately. Back in the 1970s we always told ourselves that a macrobiotic way of life would more or less mitigate the effects of these 'external factors', but perhaps we were overly optimistic.

I've never really seen these issues discussed in a sophisticated and caring manner; I've always had the sense that we were afraid to lest it be seen as inadvertently challenging or negating all the incredible good that macrobiotics has done for so many people. But maybe it has been discussed and I just haven't seen it?

[Nancy]

Rick,

I think for those lucky enough to have become macrobiotic in their early twenties, teens, or childhood (raised in macrobiotic families), such individuals have a solid base for lifelong health. The cancer and disease statistics regarding the traditional Japanese diet, are still impressive. The Japanese only lose this edge when succumbing to a Western diet filled with sugars, chemicals, and adulterated meat and dairy foods.

Yet, there is a whole range of people coming into macrobiotics at various adult ages seeking to reverse what is -already- a disease condition. Depending upon the support they receive from other family members, community, etc. and their own ability to stick to the recommended guidelines for caring for a particular condition -- they will be successful at regaining health, or not.

I have known of macrobiotic women who succumbed to cervical cancer because they were living in an adulterous marriage, in which sexually transmitted viruses were introduced, caused by the philandering. It is well known in gynecological circles that such viruses are a major cause of lower tract reproductive cancers.

I've known of macrobiotic practitioners who received a diagnosis of cancer, and though eminently knowledgeabe and able to dispense excellent macrobiotic advice to others, at some point they became scared and succumbed to the procedures of the Medical Cancer Industry, submitting to surgery, chemotherapy, radiation and other radical and violent forms of cancer treatment. They met with a rapid and painful end of physical life.

As far as osteoporosis goes, I think it is a wise idea to have periodic diagnostic testing regarding bone density, B12 levels, blood work ups to check lipids, cholesterol, etc. In my opinion, that is knowledge and information, rather than being in the dark about one's body. Then when finding something amiss, that something amiss can be tweaked towards optimum health using the Macrobiotic diet, and organic whole foods.

I that way, I agree with a check up and a check, but not with undergoing and MRI scan for any possible bodily flaw and cutting it out with a scalpel.

Most any disease can be overcome the natural way, with diligence.

Nancy

[macroPsychotic]

The biggest reason I eat macrobiotically is to fully enjoy/experience the present. Even if I was told I would get cancer from eating macrobiotically for years I would not care because it allows me to be happy in the present. I think if you eat macrobiotically to fullfill some future health goal maybe you are missing the point. However your point about increasing toxins is a good one. It is are to be happy in the moment when you are breathing poison air.
I think I agree that macrobiotics can only balance the toxcity(mental, physcial, spiritual) of the present moment so much. I think macrobiotics is just a fundamental part of truly holistic health.

[qzw52]

Hi Rick,

The post by Macropsychotic resonates with me where the person is discussing living happy in the present moment.

Longevity is relative to each of us individually especially when we consider our birth constitution we inherited and what our condition was when we began the macrobiotic life.

As examples, would Bill Dufy have lived to 86 without macrobiotics? I don't think so. Would George Ohsawa have lived to his early seventies if not for macrobiotics? Definately not.

But the main factor, imho, is the quality of one's life. When we look at the creative output of some of our macro leaders, as just one example, the results are just astounding.

Living macrobiotically can help people to think more clearly and to open their hearts to spirituality more, imho.

It helps to clarify the slave mentality that most of our formal educations, societal values, and family values have ingrained in us. In doing so, we can live more freely, simply and happily in our day to day lives.

Dave

Originally Posted by Rick

Being fairly new here, I was browsing some of the earlier messages and came across one that mentioned "the increasing incidents of cancer, heart disease and now osteoporosis that is afflicting the community." Reading this struck a chord in me. With Aveline's tragic death a few years ago, and a number of other macrobiotic folk getting sick, I've been wondering what's going on. What are some of the factors involved that have led to some macrobiotic people getting osteoporosis, cancer, heart problems, etc? Has this been discussed here? Though no one ever said that macrobiotics can 'guarantee' good health, it's nevertheless been distressing to this long-time (but off and on) macrobiotic practitioner (I started in 1972) that there has been much more illness than I would expect considering what we were all being taught back then.

Perhaps it's in part that the physical and natural environment has become much more toxic than it ever has been, and in combination with the stressful lives we are all living from being in such a dog-eat-dog capitalist society it's produced a toxic condition in our (and the world's) bodies/souls/hearts/minds that no combination of diet, lifestyle and spiritual practice can really buffer or heal adequately. Back in the 1970s we always told ourselves that a macrobiotic way of life would more or less mitigate the effects of these 'external factors', but perhaps we were overly optimistic.

I've never really seen these issues discussed in a sophisticated and caring manner; I've always had the sense that we were afraid to lest it be seen as inadvertently challenging or negating all the incredible good that macrobiotics has done for so many people. But maybe it has been discussed and I just haven't seen it?

[Nancy]

Hi Rick, et. al.,

I was shopping at an online bookstore last night, seeking to add to my Aveline Kushi cookbook collection. My next purchase will probably be "Aveline Kushi's Complete Guide to Macrobiotic Cooking". From what I've seen of the book, it seems absolutely marvelous.

I am writing this under the thread, "Long-time macros getting sick -- why?" because someone reviewed Aveline's book (mentioned above) and warned off any potential readers from this quack diet, because Aveline "died of cervical cancer that went into her bones".

I revere Aveline Kushi, and only hope to equal, in some part, her contribution to the world during her life. Cancer is much more complicated than any of our minds can encompass. Causes can be hereditary and environmental, etc. --Not just food!

Frankly, I would like to freely discuss my questions about macros and cancer in this thread. I've always wanted to ask what form of cancer Lily Kushi died of...? And, at what age...? I think it is helpful to the macrobiotic community to explore these issues with compassion and respect for those macros who have passed on from cancer.

In the pages of Cybermacro, Bill Neall had previously posted lengthy articles on Murray Snyder's battle with throat cancer. In late 2002, Bill Neall himself, died of a rare form of soft tissue cancer, a sarcoma. This sudden death was a shock to many in the community, as Bill did not share his condition freely with all of us.

Aveline was 79, and lived a wonderfully productive, and helpful life.

I love Aveline, , and her memory, and legacy.

Nancy

[qzw52]

[quote=Nancy]Hi Rick, et. al.,

I am writing this under the thread, "Long-time macros getting sick -- why?" because someone reviewed Aveline's book (mentioned above) and warned off any potential readers from this quack diet, because Aveline "died of cervical cancer that went into her bones".

Frankly, I would like to freely discuss my questions about macros and cancer in this thread. I've always wanted to ask what form of cancer Lily Kushi died of...? And, at what age...? I think it is helpful to the macrobiotic community to explore these issues with compassion and respect for those macros who have passed on from cancer.

***my understanding is that Lilly Kushi and her mom, Aveline, both died of the same thing, cervical cancer. I think Lilly was in her early forties. Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong in my recollections.


In the pages of Cybermacro, Bill Neall had previously posted lengthy articles on Murray Snyder's battle with throat cancer. In late 2002, Bill Neall himself, died of a rare form of soft tissue cancer, a sarcoma. This sudden death was a shock to many in the community, as Bill did not share his condition freely with all of us.

Aveline was 79, and lived a wonderfully productive, and helpful life.

***Indeed, a wonderful person who did so much to help others and worked all her life to pursue world peace.

In reading many but not all of Ohsawa's books, I never once came upon the idea of having to use a pressure cooker. Besides all else, to me, a pressure cooker given its price which can be quite high, did not seem to be in harmony with macrobiotics which can be a very simple and inexpensive way to live often enough.

Years ago when faithfully using my pressure cooker, I eventually noticed certain health concerns that came up. Later on, now, I do not use a pressure cooker.

Is it possible that most people who come to macrobiotics are often more expanded and that a device like a pressure cooker which is quite yangizing to the grains & beans can be very helpful?

Later on though, my feeling is that this can cause problems and what we see happening to many long time macros could be the result of the yangizing effects of pressure cooking combined with a diet with too much salt.

But this is pure speculation on my part and not meant to offend anyone. I, myself, have stopped pressure cooking and nowadays use less salt in my foods when cooking. For me, this is a good thing.

Dave

[Bruce Paine]

Dave,

If you want to explore the anti-pressure cooking direction to one of it's extremes, I recommend you visit Harold Kulungian's discussion site MACROBIOTIC CRITIQUE http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/haroldkulungian/.

There are lot's of things that many macrobiotic people do that many not be healthy to do much in the long run, be it consume too much salt, too much baked food, eat too many desserts, drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, watch tv, or spend more than 15 minutes a day in front of one of these computers, so why should eating pressure cooked food be any worse?

We all know that pressure cooking (pc) imparts a more yang energy onto food especially grain, so it's wise to eat less pc food during the hot times of the year, like the summer or in hot climates.

This summer, for instance, in our household, we are boiling our rice but we have pressured cooked it once.

Next winter we probably will pressure cook it often.

Also, if one is cooking on electricity, then pc cooked grain (especially in an Ohsawa Pot) might be more balanced than boiled.

But pressure cooking grain and beans for every meal all year around for most people is not healthy.

Thirty years ago many macros were consuming too much salt and oil, so a certain macrobiotic leader and others have devised dietary recommendations that have reflected an acknowledgement of these problems and have suggested much less salt, less oil, less baked flour products, less sea vegetables in miso soup, beans, and nishime, more leafy greans, some vegetable juice and even some nightshades like tomato for healthy people.

I find it interesting that some people who have decreased their pressure cooking and salt have returned to eating meat and dairy (like either The Atkins Diet or the Weston Price nutritional approach).

I (someone who works outside all year around) would rather eat more pc foods and a little more salt than meat or dairy which by the way are quite plentiful in many of the gourmet restaurants that I wash windows for!

What is your activity every day and what do you eat?

Regarding longtime leaders who died before their expected time, we don't know exactly why they died (especially what they binged on, privately) so why attribute it to any one thing?

Leaders are human beings with their own weaknesses.

Instead of dumping all the responsibilities of whether eating a certain way works on leaders (who represent a very small group of individuals), let's instead look to see how eating certain foods appears to affect the masses of people.

If great numbers of people are getting negative results from certain foods, style of cooking, or diet, then we can more easily come to conclusions about those practices.

Maybe those leaders died from "Leadership Disease" and since most followers are not leaders, there is less chance that they will be afflected by it.

One of the leaders fell to his death from a multi storied building.

Everyone who knew him or followed his example should now stay away from muli-storied buildings?

One famous macrobiotic leader has been reputed to often eat gourmet foods outside the home and teaches people that to heal unheathy conditions one must eat a simple non-gourmet diet.

Do we discard his teachings because he doesn't always eat a simple diet or do we instead let go of our attachment to what we believe he should be doing (non-credo), and instead seek what is the best way for ourselves?

Thank you, very much.

Bruce Paine

[qzw52]

Hi Bruce,

There is a lot of wisdom in what you write and certainly in what you have written in this particular post as well. I will comment on some of them and delete the rest only because this will save space in the archive.

[quote=Bruce Paine]Dave,

There are lot's of things that many macrobiotic people do that many not be healthy to do much in the long run, be it consume too much salt, too much baked food, eat too many desserts, drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, watch tv, or spend more than 15 minutes a day in front of one of these computers, so why should eating pressure cooked food be any worse?

***I can't speak for everyone, but my experience with my particular situation leads me to believe that right now, pressure cooking is not for me. In the past, pressure cooking contributed to physical problems I was having.

Thirty years ago many macros were consuming too much salt and oil, so a certain macrobiotic leader and others have devised dietary recommendations that have reflected an acknowledgement of these problems and have suggested much less salt, less oil, less baked flour products, less sea vegetables in miso soup, beans, and nishime, more leafy greans, some vegetable juice and even some nightshades like tomato for healthy people.

***Good point. Ohsawa always encouraged people to use their intuition. Don't accept at face value and be an imitator only of his words, but we should blaze our own path.

I find it interesting that some people who have decreased their pressure cooking and salt have returned to eating meat and dairy (like either The Atkins Diet or the Weston Price nutritional approach).

***This would be going to one extreme or the other. Not balanced most likely.

What is your activity every day and what do you eat?

***I walk dogs and pet sit cats, snakes, gerbils and guinea pigs etc. At night I work as a security guard. I eat whole grains, no sugar except some cooked fruit, veggies, beans, fish, and occassionally some turkey and chicken. No beef or lamb, very little sea vegetables (I make a stock from kombu) and no miso or soy sauce/tamari. No bancha or green tea. I drink water and occassionally ginger root tea. I use sea salt when cooking.

Regarding longtime leaders who died before their expected time, we don't know exactly why they died (especially what they binged on, privately) so why attribute it to any one thing?

***I didn't and wouldn't. I would suggest that people reconsider pressure cooking grains and beans and to think about less salt. But even these suggestions are an individual thing and should not be pushed aside completely. I find pressure cooking is reason some folks feel inclined to binge.
My speculation about many long-time, old time macros is the overuse of pressure cooking and too much salt. But it's just speculation.

Many factors contribute to health. Ron's book about macrobiotics beyond food is a good read. We also live in very stressful times where everything is potentially toxic: the homes we live in, the water we bathe and drink, the air we breathe, all the electromagnetic radiation from tv's, computers, cell phones, radio waves and much, much more. Do we have satisfying and harmonious relationships? All these can play a role beyond diet.

Instead of dumping all the responsibilities of whether eating a certain way works on leaders (who represent a very small group of individuals), let's instead look to see how eating certain foods appears to affect the masses of people.

****I wasn't dumping. I was participating in what Nancy termed a respectful and open discussion on why so many of our macro leaders are not dying of old age, but instead specific cancers and strokes and more. I was participating in the discussion by speculating on the "why" in nancy's question.

Maybe those leaders died from "Leadership Disease" and since most followers are not leaders, there is less chance that they will be afflected by it.

***maybe some died before their time because of being too yang caused by too much pressure cooked foods and salt combined with the host of factors I delineated earlier that are not related to diet.

One of the leaders fell to his death from a multi storied building.

Everyone who knew him or followed his example should now stay away from muli-storied buildings?

***absolutely not. However, we could perhaps comment on his or her ability to avoid accidents as a result of being macro that Ohsawa talked about.

One famous macrobiotic leader has been reputed to often eat gourmet foods outside the home and teaches people that to heal unheathy conditions one must eat a simple non-gourmet diet.

***I believe in what Ohsawa said. He said that a happy person does whatever he/she wants and eats whatever he/she wants. The difference between people being that a macro person could adjust his or her diet later via the unique principle and be back in harmony with what he nicely termed, the order of the universe.

Do we discard his teachings because he doesn't always eat a simple diet or do we instead let go of our attachment to what we believe he should be doing (non-credo), and instead seek what is the best way for ourselves?

***don't discard the teachings. The teachings are amazing. But like you say, even our love of macrobiotics can become an attachment.

Dave

[Nancy]

Dave and Bruce, et. al.,

Dave, thanks for the information about Lily Kushi, as I never knew the details. In this case, the cervical cancer could have had a hereditary basis. It is well known that this is one of the factors leading to cancer. If the gene within the family predisposing the women to cervical cancer was pronounced enough, perhaps the best food and knowledge of food and health, was not enough to reverse it.

During the last six months of 2004 I have pressure cooked more than ever as a follower of macrobiotics. Actually, I was closely following some of Michio's prescriptions for my condition, thus, the pressure cooking was included in that. Although, I found myself to have a noticeably calm energy, mental balance, and more active energy, I like you, noticed certain things about pressure cooked food that I did not think was good for my condition. I decided, based on my own intuition and experimentation with myself as the lab, to stop pressure cooking in late spring. I reasoned, it is summer, it is hot, and I do not have to pressure cook. Whewww...what a relief!

In my opinion, pressure cooking creates very yangized food. Noticeably. I talked with one of my macrobiotic friends wondering, "What is this obsession with pressure cooking?" I don't know why there is quite this emphasis from the Kushi camp on pressure cooking. Recently, I have been cooking with the use of multi-vegetables. A lot of stir-frys that simply include several vegetables in small-moderate quantities. I've felt a rush of variety and excitement come into my life, and psychologically it has seemed to open up new areas of interest, also. I recently took an online test, to see what my risk factors are for a condition of concern to me. It turns out I placed very high, in fact over, in recommendations for five a day, vegetables (and fruits, for others). This greatly offset my risk factors for the condition. Following that, I read an article that re-emphasized how important it is not only to eat a great variety of nutritious food (in our case vegetables), but also use a great variety of cooking methods. This will be my next venture, to inlcude as much variety in cooking methods as I can. My own experiment. I trust that I will see and feel the results.

My conclusions about pressure cooking are much the same as Dave's. Unfortunately, I've also observed many macrobiotic people heavily on the yang side, without their having personal insight into their own imbalance. I think many macrobiotic people tend to eat too much on the salty, highly yangized food, side of things and are often outstandingly difficult to get along with personally. Also, as people get older it is recommended to use less and less salt. We naturally become more yang as we age, shrivel, shrink in size, etc.

Bruce, I don't quite think "eat too much baked food, eat too many deserts, drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, watch TV" quite characterizes macrobiotic people or their goals. I do think macrobiotic people tend to eat too salty and in my experience are experienced computer users, but perhaps no more than others in this day and age.

It's all a mix for everyone persuing a healthy life. Macrobiotic people are lucky (I think) to have an edge on everyone else, if they learn the use of yin/yang and take their practice from lists of foods in these two categories to actually being able to use yin/yang in their daily lives for food choices and also everything else that they experience.

Rather than "dumping responsibility on leaders of whether eating a certain way works", the premise of this thread, as Rick conceived it, was to feel free to explore concerns about what works and what doesn't work, not blame anyone. It is seeking to understand, and there is not anything wrong with that. There are so many factors that go into each and every one of us, our physical and psychological make-up, what skewed this way or that will work and won't work, that it is all fine tuning for each of us, and all personal in the final outcome. The macrobiotic leader who has the good health and freedom to eat gourmet, may also be very qualified to give advice on healing foods to the sick.

I come to the same conclusions as Dave. I think those following the macrobiotic diet need to be especially wary of the use of too much salt, and to relegate pressure cooking to a normal place among all the various methods of cooking. To over emphasize pressure cooking, might indeed throw everything out of balance. It only makes sense.

I also agree with Dave concerning accidents, be they big or small, as an indication of imbalance. Dropping things, breaking things, burning things, are the first indicaters of imbalance, which if neglected can leader to bigger accidents.

I think this might be my 100th post.

Let's have a party!

Nancy

[qzw52]

[quote=Nancy]Dave and Bruce, et. al.,

Dave, thanks for the information about Lily Kushi, as I never knew the details. In this case, the cervical cancer could have had a hereditary basis. It is well known that this is one of the factors leading to cancer. If the gene within the family predisposing the women to cervical cancer was pronounced enough, perhaps the best food and knowledge of food and health, was not enough to reverse it.

****It is indeed sad what happened. Sometimes life can be very difficult to say the least. My heart goes out to the Kushi family.

***Heriditary factors certainly are a huge consideration especially when we consider that one will predisposed to certain illnesses based on their physical constitution that originated from our parents and back on the family flowchart.

During the last six months of 2004 I have pressure cooked more than ever as a follower of macrobiotics. Actually, I was closely following some of Michio's prescriptions for my condition, thus, the pressure cooking was included in that. Although, I found myself to have a noticeably calm energy, mental balance, and more active energy, I like you, noticed certain things about pressure cooked food that I did not think was good for my condition. I decided, based on my own intuition and experimentation with myself as the lab, to stop pressure cooking in late spring. I reasoned, it is summer, it is hot, and I do not have to pressure cook. Whewww...what a relief!

***Bruce was saying this too and it really made a lot of sense as well.

***Back in the eighties I was very ill. I wanted to get well so badly. Practically every recipe book I bought, the first recipe was always pressure cooked rice. It was an easy jump for me to make the connection therefore, that a pressure cooker was important if the diet was going to work for me.

***Yet I was very poor, and the expense prohibitive (even now I notice that pressure cookers even on this site cost between 99 dollars and 200 dollars) but being sick outweighed being poor so I made the financial sacrifice. Using the pressure cooker occassionally but perhaps not as much or at all in really hot weather, like during the summer etc really makes sense now. But looking back, I can see myself pressure cooking like a madman in a hot little kitchen in the middle of July. My understanding and judgment then was as poor as my physical health!

***Recently I bought a recipe book that claims to make macro whole foods cookery easier and faster. I noticed that so many, the majority sometimes, of the recipes in the individual categories in the book advocate pressure cooking. Since pressure cookers cook things often enough faster, sometimes it seems that the pressure cooker is used by people as if it is a "macro microwave."

***Yet every front has a back and perhaps sometimes what we make up in speed can have other consequences. But I would say that within yin and yang, there can be times where the energy of pressure cooked foods could be one key to acquiring our balance once again.

In my opinion, pressure cooking creates very yangized food. Noticeably. I talked with one of my macrobiotic friends wondering, "What is this obsession with pressure cooking?" I don't know why there is quite this emphasis from the Kushi camp on pressure cooking.

***My feeling is twofold:

Primarily it is because the Kushi's are/were extremely giving and fine people and when they were helping people with macrobiotics they found they were dealing with people who were quite often very yin or expanded in their condition. People were being helped by lots of pressure cooking, really salty foods and miso soups etc. and that is what they needed at the time they started and/or were consulted on how to improve their condition.

But the thing about macrobiotics is that we're taught that everything changes. It really is important to adjust and fine tune what we are doing continually. However, it can be challenging to do so because when something works, most of us will stick with it. I did and ended up going from one extreme to the other unfortunately.

The second reason is often economics. If you are a person who earns part or some of his or her income from selling pressure cookers, you can become unintentionally zealous in your recommendations for this very expensive kitchen implement.

I come to the same conclusions as Dave. I think those following the macrobiotic diet need to be especially wary of the use of too much salt, and to relegate pressure cooking to a normal place among all the various methods of cooking. To over emphasize pressure cooking, might indeed throw everything out of balance. It only makes sense.

***It's also important to recognize that a person who was born into a family that traditionally has eaten lots of the wonderful foods included in the standard macro diet could be very different than a child born into a family where the standard american diet has been eaten for generations.

I think this might be my 100th post.

Let's have a party!

***congratulations Nancy and sincere thanks. Your posts here at cybermacro have helped me countless times. And again, thank you Bruce for the very same reason. Your posts have helped me countless times as well.

In gratitude,

Dave

[Mara]

Originally Posted by Nancy

I think this might be my 100th post.

Let's have a party!

Nancy

Congratulations on your 100th post, Nancy!

We all appreciate you here a great deal!!

[garymill]

Thanks Nancy for being so helpful to everyone in the forums!

[Nancy]

Wow, Thanks!

God bless us, everyone.

Nancy

[garymill]

Just to be really outrageous, I had uploaded a Nixon, Now more than ever campaign button for the forum, but I removed it thinking that someone might not think this was funny. Maybe I do have a warped sense of humor.