to fish or not to fish

[macroPsychotic]

So, why are salmon, and tuna restricted(besides the fact that they are being found to be very in pollutants)? Are they too yang? I enjoy them both and live in the Northwest(where salmon is very local) and find them warming and strengtening in the winter. I also play basketball, lift weights, and bike very regularly and find myself craving flesh after long workouts. Whitefish is good too, but is generally more expensive and harder to find fresh.
Thanks

[Johnnyzen]

I think you are better off not eating animals. I exercise daily, and have avoided eating anything with a mother for 32 years. I know many vegetarian athletes and a couple of weight lifters. The protein in soy is complete, and cleaner than fish.

[MJS]

Originally Posted by Johnnyzen

I think you are better off not eating animals. I exercise daily, and have avoided eating anything with a mother for 32 years. I know many vegetarian athletes and a couple of weight lifters. The protein in soy is complete, and cleaner than fish.

Isn't soy a thyroid suppressant in large quantities? It's really not a good food to consume daily in the concentrated forms of soymilk, tofu. Especially for people with allergies/history of low thyroid.

[Nancy]

macroPsychotic,

First, may I ask, why macroPsychotic? Why Psychotic, at all? The two seem mutually exclusive.

Salmon and tuna are not restricted on the Standard Macrobiotic Diet, they are part of the diet, but suggested for more infrequent, rather than frequent use. The reason for this is, they are considered fattier fish, which is not as favorable for the healing macrobiotic diet. Most individuals find the macrobiotic way due to severe illness (cancer and the like), less severe illness (beginning diabetes II), or are noticing body imbalance, with concern. Thus, the diet's first concern is achieving health and balance, not as easily done on fatty foods.

If you are in good health, living in the Northwest, where wild salmon (not farmed) is local, and find it especially good food for winter, I say, -- listen to your body and eat in accordance with how you feel and what your body tells you. Macrobiotic living is not about following lists that may not be appropriate for an individual's condition or climate. Lists are a guideline to get you started on the macrobiotic way. Then, as one learns more about climate and seasonal foods, yin and yang, and macrobiotic cooking styles, it's up to the individual to choose foods that are the most health enhancing.

Fish is more yang than the most yang grain (buckwheat - highest plant protein), but is less yang than beef, other meats, and eggs. A wide variety of fish and seafood is acceptable and recommended for the macrobiotic diet. See my post under the heading of, Recipes for Lobster, for more information on macrobiotic diet, including fish and seafood.

Nancy

[macroPsychotic]

Thanks Nancy, well as far as the name, it is a bit harsh, but its only because some of my friends think I am 'psychotic' for eating brown rice all the time and loving it, I try not to take myself too serious Your right, I need to keep with my intuition, I guess I just wanted some different angles on the subject. I have no serious health problems, my problems are more yin in the head (focus, stability, fragmented thoughts, wild imagination) mostly likely from years of sugar abuse so maybe that is why I am attracted to salmon, yang, grounding things.

Thanks again,
MP

[macroPsychotic]

I do have problems trying to eat too many beans,tofu, tempeh when craving protein strongly, and sometimes have had migraines from too too much. But hopefully as my constitution strengthens, soy can become a more daily part of my diet

Originally Posted by MJS

Isn't soy a thyroid suppressant in large quantities? It's really not a good food to consume daily in the concentrated forms of soymilk, tofu. Especially for people with allergies/history of low thyroid.

[macroPsychotic]

Johnny Zen, I should re-examine my ethics whenever comfort is concerned, it seems I am more comfortable eating animals the furthest from my own species. Maybe you are speciest, doesnt a plant that give off seeds a mother too? I myself am comfortable eating things furthur away from my own species, so I am a speciest.

Originally Posted by MJS

Isn't soy a thyroid suppressant in large quantities? It's really not a good food to consume daily in the concentrated forms of soymilk, tofu. Especially for people with allergies/history of low thyroid.

[janeyric]

Hello Macro Friends

Fish.

Hmm... I have to admit i am personally very wary of people who knowing murder any living being when they dont have to. This may not be as liberal as you would like to hear. When I went veggie I could find no ethical distinction between killing rabbits or fish or cows or chickens. Then I decided I could not support the industries viability through its by-products and went vegan. Then I furthered this responsibility towards myself and vibe I give to others and went macro too.

I am not saying "This is the one right way way to live", its just that I dont live in the north pole and I find plenty of yangness in things like gomashio, so I dont yin-out like some vegans have a tendency to.

Find your own way-this will be the best thing.
I remain wary!

fearlessness and harmony,
*j*

[janeyric]

Oh! This was what I was going to reply before I went off on an ethical tangent!

LINE FISHING:

Someone dangles a meal at street level from the top of a building. The meal says FREE! Its a great meal, like groats and barley with seaweed and carrots and a bit of miso cooked in it too, really nice and hot too, all fresh.

You have been hungry for a while so you take a bite. Then while you are chewing, you find something in it, but before you can spit it out, the rope pulls and it is hooked in the side of your mouth and you are screaming in pain, and being hauled up to the top of the building and then the guy suffocates you and bashes your head in.

TRAWLER FISSSSSHING:

A massive net with iron bars along the bottom is suspended between two bomber jet planes. They fly over your city/town/village/settlement and scoop up everything insight. They pick your brother out and toss him back because he looks funny. They chuck out a horse and most of the bulidings. BUt you and the rest of your family is all in a pile in the bottom of this net, going god knows where. Then you get dumped and suffocated.

Come on, where has all the compassion gone?!!!?
f&h
*j*

[Nancy]

janeyric,

The macrobiotic way has never claimed to be vegan. As stated, fish and seafood are a recommended part of the Standard Macrobiotic Diet, if an individual so chooses. Peta or a vegan site would be a better venue to promote a non-flesh eating diet. My concern here, is that macrobiotic people following the Standard Macrobiotic Diet, not be criticized for discussion or practice well within the boundaries of macrobiotics. These are macrobiotic forums, not vegan forums. Within the scope of recommended foods for the practice of macrobiotics, a vegan can navigate, or a fish/seafood eater can navigate. It boils down to personal choice and responsibility, and allowing others to make those choices for themselves.

Again, I reiterate, that rather than imposing our eating habits on others within macrobiotics, that macrobiotic people look towards becoming a more cohensive front to the world -- to become politically active together, and use our commonality to effect change in conditions on factory farms, or make stronger inroads against genetically modified foods, or the many other causes needing our attention.

Nancy

---

[janeyric]

Thank you Nancy.

Of course I agree. As I have said, I do not claim to have the 'one right way to live'. As a macrobiotic vegan permaculturist I am sharing my particular, unique and personal opinon on this. This is the spice of discussion is it not? I love to hear such a diversity of opinion!

Are you advocating that mine should be the one to be silenced?

With a world-wide encompassing forum for macrobiotics I am sure that you would welcome such variety of opinion. Thank you for sharing this with me and reminding us all of the limits of our own visions.

as always,
fearlessness and harmony,
*j*

[Nancy]

janeyric,

It seems that you did not really understand my meaning in the last post, as there is a peevishness in your reply. I would like to see the forums, discussion, and behavior in them as more cohesive and working towards common goals, rather than attack of fellow macrobiotic people. This serves no lofty purpose, dilutes the message of the macrobiotic philosophy, and frankly makes it seem ineffective to those seeking macrobiotics as a possible way of life.

To suggest that eating fish is murder is extreme language, that could be tempered for the sake of all, and would also make your viewpoint stronger and less incendiary.

I am suggesting that macrobiotic practitioners, eating within the bounds of their practice, not be criticized for doing so on a macrobiotic site. Common sense.

Your last statement suggests your overall attitude as that of lacking cooperation.

Exactly my point.

Nancy

[Johnnyzen]

This is not a vegan site, but veganism is related to MAcrobiotic philosophy today. Macrobiotics teaches balace. The way animal foods are produced today is not in blalnce with nature, and is inhumane. Macrobiotics addresses not just diet but ethics as well. Foods produced without integrity or respect for the animals is not compatable with Macrobiotics, in my opinion.

I am not saying that all Macros must be vegan, but certainly Macros should consider the source of their foods, whether animal or plant. Those eating animals may want to find sources that are natural and not produced on factory farms, or genetically engineered.

Studies today show that animal foods are not necessary in teh human diet, so one can be macro and vegan easily. Most fish today is full of pollutants, additives, etc. Even mainstream doctors tell pregnant women to limit fish consumption because of this. I thinks sea vegetables and sources of omega 3 oils from flax seeds and hemp seeds are superior sources of these nutrients.

If you don't have to eat anything that had a mother, why do it????

[Nancy]

In my responses to the question of fish/seafood consumption on this thread, I have had several considerations. Firstly, a brand new member of Cybermacro posted the very first time, regarding lobster (a seafood listed as compatible with the macrobiotic diet, for infrequent use) and lobster recipes. He was greeted at Cybermacro Forums by a long time member, who shouted derogatory terms at the poster in CAPS for the first five sentences of his post. That post has been removed. It is unacceptable behavior in this forum. Anyone indulging in this behavior as a macrobiotic person, should stay offline, review their own diet, balance and practice, and make needed changes. When and if, they are able to be a helpful, contributing member to the community and those new to macrobiotics, then return to online forums.

It is perfectly acceptable for vegans to put forth their ideals for eating and reasons for them, without criticizing and making derogatory statements towards others, or those in the macrobiotic community who choose, for their own individual constitution, to eat the allowable and accepted fish and seafood prescribed in the Standard Macrobiotic Diet.

It is not okay to razz, call names, call others uncivilized, or murderous who eat fish and seafood. Please use language that is helpful and respectful to the whole community in all of your posts on Cybermacro. In denigrating other macrobiotic people, you denigrate George Ohsawa, Michio and Aveline Kushi, Herman and Cornellia Aihara, Ed and Wendy Esko, Naburo Muramoto, Kristina Turner, Christina Pirello, Julia Ferre and scores of other macrobiotic philosophers, leaders, teachers, and published writers who include fish and seafood as part of the macrobiotic diet.

Without respect for others in the community, the overall philosophy, understanding of the recommended foods, or why other human beings are permitted their own choice of foods available on the planet for their own consumption (whether those choices are good or bad), a vegan's message contradicts itself -- it displays intolerance and a need to control other's choices and individual rights.

For those who continually come to the community for no other reason than being right, arguing, and disagreeing, I pose to you another form of discussion that includes first welcome, then concern, love for fellow human beings, support, helpfulness, understanding, teaching, and instruction, with a view towards bettering this online community and the world.

If the description of posting to be right, argue, disagree, shout down, and dispose of other posters here to learn and share information, describes your manner of posting, I ask each person to monitor themselves and change their ways.

Nancy
Moderator

[Johnnyzen]

>a vegan's message contradicts itself -- it displays intolerance and a need >to control other's choices and individual rights.

Nancy, what do you mean here, that vegans by nature are this way? So I have to eat animals to be tolerant and not be controlling????

I don't care what others eat, except that the more that eat ecolocigally, the better it is for all of us, and the more humane world we will have. I believe that is a goal of Macrobiotics. I do not tell anybody what to eat, just my opinion.

Macrobiotis is an evolving philosophy. there was a time whtn cigarettes were considered ok in Macrobiotics, but most now know that is not the case. Even a MAcro who eats some animals, if he or she is following teh diet according to recommendations, would only eat 4 ounces of fish maybe 1 or 2 times a week, so it is not really a big issue. The question then becomes, why eat animals at all if you don't have to????