to fish or not to fish

[Nancy]

Johnnyzen,

Ask yourself why you felt the need to truncate my sentence and attempt to misrepresent me. My sentence was,

"Without respect for others in the community, the overall philosophy, understanding of the recommended foods, or why other human beings are permitted their own choice of foods available on the planet for their own consumption (whether those choices are good or bad), a vegan's message contradicts itself -- it displays intolerance and a need to control other's choices and individual rights."

I didn't write the last part of the sentence without the first. By promoting the vegan philosophy, without respect for other's rights to make their own individual food choices (whether good or bad) -- it displays intolerance and a need to control other's choices and individual rights. Surely, a vegan can express their views without putting down others.

I think John Robbins does a great job of this. Put out the facts. That is teaching. Teaching is not putting down others, then putting out your own philosophy.

This statement is disappointing. You said it, I didn't.

"Nancy, what do you mean here, that vegans by nature are this way? So I have to eat animals to be tolerant and not be controlling????"

As we all know, everyone is at a different stage of development. Go to McDonald's and you will see a crowded restaurant at most times of the day, mother's raising their children on hamburger, not caring where it came from or the ramifications. Put out the message in a way that teaches, without antagonizing -- my suggestion. Certainly my suggestion for these forums, where we are all present together.

I don't see macrobiotics the same way as you. It has been nearly half a century that we've known the dangers of nicotene to the human body. Yet, I see nothing about macrobiotics that restricts smoking, other than one's individual right to smoke or not to smoke, and still be macrobiotic. Macrobiotics is a way of living that educates and instructs others regarding how to achieve and maintain health. It does not stipulate what individuals can and cannot do, other than by recommendation.

You seem to be missing the point about individual development. Some people will choose to eat meat, or fish, or smoke, until they are 100 or over. You are seeing everything from your own perspective as the center of the universe -- "I don't eat meat, or fish, or smoke, so why should you?" That is not being in reality. Others are not making their individual choices, based on your thoughts.

Many select a convenient means to provide protein and calcium, without much thought. They weigh the risks and consequences, or they do not. Each person's body is their own domain. If the concern is the environment, that is a very worthy stand from which to educate and inform others, as are the health risks.

I do believe you see the logic of allowing macrobiotic people to discuss macrobiotic food and recipes, with freedom and respect, on a macrobiotic website.

Nancy

[Johnnyzen]

Nancy, I have little disagreement with you. Some random thoughts.......

Well, it is interesting that in Macrobiotics there is restriction on liquid consumption, fruit, and other foods not part of teh regimine, but no restriction on smoking! This is definitely a problem in Macrobiotics, in my opinion. The founder was a heavy smoker, and Kushi still smokes today. There is no restreiction because the main teachers were smokers!

Newer books like Alex Jack's "Let Food be Thy Medicine" do have negative facts about smoking, but it has been a tradition in MAcrobiotics to smoke, at least in moderation. This has caused some credibility problems with non-macro health oriented people, in my opinion.

There are many "in your face" vegans. There were many "in your face" abolitionists. Some equate the treatment of animals to slavery. With this perspective, it is understandable that many are a bit caustic at times. I agree, John Robbins is great, as is John Mc Doughall, Dean Ornish, Howard Lyman, Neal Barnard. There is probably a need for more "shock" approaches like PETA, due to the mass production of meat and dairy products in our country, and the total disregard for sentient beings by this industry. There is no pretty fluffy way to describe this industry. to face it head on is to admit that the industry is continually depersonalizing animasl and mainly interested in the profit.

When the personal stuff about Dr. Atkins camae out a couple of days ago, I found it tasteless and perhaps a bit unethical. It would be like somebody condemning Macrobiotics because Aveline Kushi died of cancer.On the other hand, Atkins has promoted this diet for many years, at the expense of many beings, the enviornment, and the health of many. I think we need to continue studies on these diets, rather than rhetorical remarks.

I have never judged or put down anybody in here for eating animals. I just give my opinions on eating animals, which I am entitled to. I am entitiled to the opinion, for example, that veganism, (or a veggie diet with free range eggs) is superior as far as being a more humane way of eating, better for the enviornment, and healthier in most cases. You may disagree. I should not have to alter mly speech because somebody else eats animals and thinks that is ok. I encounter that all the time, live around it daily. I have to adjust to what the vast majority believe, adn I am sure most in here understand what that is like, being MAcro, vegan or whatever.

[Nancy]

Johnnyzen,

Again, to make the same point, and it is a fine point -- there are really no restrictions, other than one's own ability to follow the highest recommendations for the healing macrobiotic diet at its best. I've known many macrobiotic people. None, at all times, is able to follow a completely ascetic macrobiotic diet. What is that? And, is it the same for everyone? Everyone has a different constitution, and condition varies at different times of the day.

Some macrobiotic people I've known cannot stay away from tomatoes, tomato sauce, etc. Although, nightshade vegetables are not recommended. Who are nightshade vegetables not recommended for and why? Others, who experience no problems eating tomatoes, can eat them, even on the macrobiotic diet. It depends upon one's own individual condition. Drinking eight glasses of water a day for an entire lifetime, may wear out the kidney's, unnecessarily. The macrobiotic diet makes this point and explains why.

The "restrictions" are recommendations. Liquid and fruit consumption are part of the macrobiotic diet. Which regimen are you talking about? -- #7?, #6, #5 - (-3), which one? Smoking, coffee drinking, etc., are a matter of individual choice. Is Michio -because he smokes-, not macrobiotic and not following the macrobiotic diet? Whose judgement call is that to make? The Surgeon General has recommended against smoking. Who is restricted? Is it against the law?

There are no restrictions, in your sense of the word. You are living in a world of can and can't dos, but who is it that is dictating the can and can't dos? No one has the right to make those dictations over others, except by going through the process of societal lawmaking. Change the laws, and you will have the restrictions.

I'm sorry that it is definately a problem for you, that others have the freedom to smoke or not to smoke, macrobiotic or not. Should we annihilate the tobacco plant from the earth? Within moderation, nothing natural to the earth is bad. I don't think it's macrobiotic tradition to smoke. It is the personal choice of some individuals.

Regarding "in-your-face" behavior on Cybermacro. This is an online Macrobiotic Community. Part of the macrobiotic philosophy is promoting personal balance, peace among individuals, and world peace. For any "in-your-face" behavior, please sign up with PETA. In the Macrobiotic Community, there are long-term macros, who've fine tuned their diet over years of practice. Being raised on sugar, dairy foods, and meat does not fall away easily, and many are in transition. People who are -new- to macrobiotics and this community should especially be treated with deference and respect. This is not a place to bark political views at others and demand they think the same as you (for anyone). I am asking everyone to monitor their language, with those following the macrobiotic - not the vegan diet - present, those in transition present, and newcomers present. If anyone feels they cannot post intelligent discussion, with respect for others, relaying the tenets of your position (as John Robbins does), please voluntarily refrain from posting.

If anyone has further arguments against posting to each other with respect - please use the private message mailer system on Cybermacro and direct them to me personally. Just click on the name, Nancy, and you will see the live link to send me a personal message.

In Peace,
Nancy
Moderator

[Johnnyzen]

Macrobiotics has limits. Tomatoes and other nightshades are greatly limited, but cigarettes are not. daily consumption of cigarettes is common among some macros, because Ohsawa did not think they had health risks. In other words, he saw nightshades as needing to be restricted much more than tobacco products.
My view is that macro is an evolving philosophy. Nobody today thinks cigarettes are good, even in moderation, that I know of, except some of the "old guard" of the Macro movement.

New information about fish may lead some to discontinue its use, and use sea vegetables, flax and hemp oil, and other nutrient rich sources of vitamins and omega 3 oils in place of fish. Most fish produced in this country is no farm-raised, and even genetically engineered. Teh natural fish is often polluted. Of course, Ohshawa was not dealing with this in the 50s and 60s.

And the humane aspects are certainly valid. As we see violence escalating in our world, we perhaps should look at our own lives. Some say that violence begins with the fork, and what we consume physically and mentally.

[Nancy]

Cigarettes are limited by one's own conscience. So many people are severely addicted to the especially addicting chemicals purposely put into modern cigarettes, that they have given up hope of ever kicking the habit. See the excellent Russell Crowe/Al Pacino movie, "The Insider" for what one tobacco chemist went through when he blew the whistle.

I have been wondering why you do not post the factual information about pollutants in fish, as in John Robbin's book, Diet for a New America, rather than just mention pollutants generally. That is a strong argument. In fact, it would be helpful to do the research, and write an article for Cybermacro. Let people make their choice.

Farmed fish are no healthy option, although they are allowed to label farmed salmon and other fish "organic" if fed organic feed, they are shot full of hormones and antibiotics, also genetically engineered to be monsters of their species. The result -- flabby, overlarge, genetically engineered, pink fish/flesh. What could be more unnatural?

Nancy

[Johnnyzen]

Yes, I have heard some macro teachers say that cigarettes are bad for you because they have so many additives, but I think it has been proven that inhaling tobacco, even without the additives, is very harmful to your health!

I can smoke organic marijuana, but it is still marijuana, and can destroy many organs, as can tobacco, even in moderation.

John Robbins cites many studies showing the harmful effects of fish and all animal foods. I highly recommend his new book, THE FOOD REVOLUTION.

[Nancy]

What do you say to George Burns, a Centenarian, living 100 years or more, who smoked cigars until the last? Your argument doesn't hold water. Life is personal choice. The Earth is a learning place for souls. Everything available on the planet, both good and bad, is available for choice for the soul to learn. A person may choose to commit a crime for money (bad), he suffers the consequences, and the soul learns.

Everything eventually destroys our organs and organism, and we die. We age. Along the way I hope you can lighten up on others and yourself, and live and let live. The way to change other's thinking, is not by being dogmatic.

Nancy

Moderator's Note: At this point I am closing off this thread. Last poster, please see message via Cybermacro's personal message system.