Atkins Diet

[Johnnyzen]

OK, I am sorry, but I see no similarity between the two whatsoever, except that they both prohibit refined carbohydrates.

Atkins:
1.Does not differentiate between organic and non-organic foods
2. Does not differentiate between natural produce and frankenfoods
3. Is very low in fiber
4. Is extremely high in protein, especially the kind with saturated fat
5. is a high fat diet
6. Eliminates whole grains completely at first, the staples of Macrobiotics

Macrobiotics is just the opposite in most counts. It is not a quick fix, like Atkins. Contrary to what anybody may say, Macro food does not cause constant bad breath, because you are not starving your body of essential nutrients contained in unrefined carbohydrates.The mactro diet is far less fat than the Atkins. Macro diets are from 6 to maybe 10 percent fat. Atkins can be over 50 percent fat!!!!

A friend of mine went to see Dr. Atkins a week before his death. He asked Atkins what are the best proteins. Atkins said, "eat all the cheese and meat you want, andy kind". Those were his words. This is conterary to even the most liberal interpretation of Macrobiotics.

I had another friend who was hospitalized with kidney and liver problems after being on thsi diet for a few weeks. They attributed it to the diet. I knew another person on teh diet who ended up taking synthetic laxatives because he was constipated from the high fat low fiber diet.

I do not mean to bad mouth Atkins personally, but his diet is responsible for much devistation of natural reaources, caused by a heavey consumption of meat and meat by-products, and dairy foods.His "supplemental" foods, which have fake sugars and fake tasting non-carbs, are synthetic foods. Why not just eat from nature???

There are many many studies linking this diet to heat disease, stroke, etc.

[jane b]

At last a view on the atkins diet that is based on personal experience and understanding, rather than a blanket overly emotional, knee jerk dismissal of Dr Atkins and his important work.

thanks themis!

[MJS]

Meat, cheese, bacon bad proteins and no diet like that in the world?

Again let’s look at facts.

The Masai and other African tribes exist largely on a diet of milk, beef and blood, they are free from heart disease and have low cholesterol.

Eskimos eat copious amounts of animal fats from fish and marine animals. They are free of disease and exceptionally hardy.

These are both groups of people who live in yin, natural environments with lots of space and lead very yang, physically active lives. Especially Eskimos! If you look at the lifestyle as a whole you'll always find some kind of a balance.

An interesting note I found about the Masai: "They (the Masai) are dreaded as warriors, laying all to waste with fire and sword, so that the weaker tribes do not venture to resist them in the open field, but leave them in possession of their herds, and seek only to save themselves by the quickest possible flight."
(J.L. Krapf, Travels, Researches, and Missionary Labours.)

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't have wanted these guys for neighbors.
The Masai had space (yin) but their climate was yang. They therefore had excess yang, which they seemed to find a use for!

Dr. Weston Price, who studied traditional African diets during the early twentieth century, concluded that the healthiest tribe "was the Dinkas, a Sudanese tribe on the western bank of the Nile. They were not as tall as the cattle-herding Neurs groups but they were physically better proportioned and had greater strength. Their diet consisted mainly of fish and cereal grains. This is perhaps the greatest lesson of Price’s African research—that a diet of whole foods, one that avoids the extremes of the carnivorous Masai and the largely vegetarian Bantu, but incorporates both nutrient dense grains and seafood, ensures optimum physical development." http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...of_africa.html

The world is getting more and more polluted and one of the greatest, if not THE greatest, sources of toxins in the human diet is now animal fat. Our bodies are fast becoming Superfund sites. It is unfortunate but even indigenous peoples who once thrived on animal-rich diets are now just as vulnerable to the effects of these industrial by-products as those of us living in the societies that create them. Cancer, birth defects, things once unheard of in these communities are becoming common. You mention Eskimos, but studies done on their food sources & breast milk are finding alarmingly high amounts of PCBs and dioxin.

[Johnnyzen]

A friend of mine met Atkins. He not only advocated high volumes of meat, but dairy as well. To compare Macrobiotics with Atkins is a far stretch of the imagination. Dairy products are for baby cows. No Macrobiotic counsellor will advocate their use, except on very rare occasions. Even on a maitenance Atkins diet, grains are not teh staple. they could never compose half of the meal, as they do in Macrobiotics.

It is seldom said that most fail on this diet. there is no need to go on it for anyreason. It is a diet designed to suit teh high fat-meat-dairy choices of Americans. MAcrobiots is a lifestyle, a balance. You cannot be vegan or vegetarian and be on the Atkins diet. I know many that got sick on it, and with the Mad Cow think finally hitting America, I would advise people to stick with plant proteins anyway.

[Johnnyzen]

The bottom line: you can lose weight on Atkins, for awhile, but you can also lose your health. The only thing Atkins and Macro have in common is that they both eliminate processed sugar foods. Macrobiotics is 50 per-cent whole grains or more. Atkins never reaches that. Macro is 5 percent or less animal food. Atkins is lots of meat, cheese, etc. dairy is for baby cows. Macro never advocates large amounts of meat and dairy. The macro diet helps you maintain a good weight without gimicks.

Thin people like Dr. Ornish and Dr. McDoughall eat a diet that is similar to macrobiotics; very low fat, lots of whole foods, no animal foods. I recommend you get Dr. McDoughall's 6 tape series.

[deus]

I'm a vegetarian trying to switch to macrobiotics, but as far as I understand it, having read the original book, Atkins *doesn't* advocate unlimited milk and cheese, because of their higher carbohydrate levels. Having read up about both diets, they both seem to make some kind of sense, but as a vegetarian, I simply couldn't do Atkins (points raised about practices and long term sustainability of the livestock industry are also relevant)
As has been pointed out, they both identify the major culprit as refined, simple carbohydrates... i.e. sugar. *that* seems to be the problem.

[Johnnyzen]

A friend of mine saw Atkins a week before he died. According to him, he looked terrible, but that is besides the point.

A diet that restricts carbs to 70 a day( and that is max!!!) cannot be compared to a macro diet, which is a lifelong diet, not a fad, with a balance of good carbs, fats and proteins, all from as natural a source as possible. Atkins does not even discuss organic, processed, etc, except to reduce sugar and candy, which is a no-brainer for somebody persuing health. No reasonable diet restricts good carbs like this. Atkins has demonized carbs to the point of absurdity.

Most people I know who are on a high UNREFINED carb diet, ie. Dr McDoughall, Dr. Ornish, Dr. Barnard, Mr. Kushi, to namde a few famous ones, are very lean people.

Atkins is responsible for the rise of beef consumption in this country, which was going down until his fad diet resurfaced. Prophets like Howard Lyman. Micio Kushi, ALex Jack, John Robbins, adn pioneer Frances Moore Lappe and warned us in the 60s,80s and 90s about "Mad Cow", hormones, "Frankenfoods", e-coli, etc., and most ignored them. Hopefully this recent Mad Cow scare will get people reading the truth about consuming large amounts of animal foods.

Although much of Oshawa's writings are a bit extreme, the basic ideas are very sound. A whole foods diet of mostly whole grains, veggies, beans, seeds and some nuts, fruit and sea veggies is a healthy way to eat!

[deus]

I'd agree with most of that, except to say that perhaps it is not Atkins himself who has "demonised" carbs, since he does make it clear in his books that carbs (from veg, dairy, etc.) are vital to maintaining health, his point being that overloading of certain carbs artificially raises bloodsugar, leading to overproduction of insulin, leading to fat storage (as far as I remember... it's been a while...). There isn't much to argue with in that, and of course, the sort of whole carbs on the mb diet are of the slow-release energy type, making them unlikely to cause the bloodsugar-insulin-fat storage problems identified by Atkins.
Perhaps more to blame is a fad-hungry media/populous who jump on the over-simplified precis of Atkins which runs: protein+fat=good, carbs=bad. the DIY version that says if you don't eat carbs, you can eat whatever you want, which is not at all what Dr Atkins said in his writings.
Again, I'm saying this as one who doesn't agree that Atkins' Diet is a life solution for myself personally, or for the world in terms of sustainability (excellent points about organic food, meat industry have been made), though Atkins is advertised as a weight/health issue, not a philosophical/environmental world view.
However, especially since the man is no longer around to defend himself, maybe we should argue against those who have taken his ideas and run (wild) with them, rather than blaming him personally.
v interesting discussion

[Johnnyzen]

You make some excellent points. Refined carbs are one of the culprits for sure, as are excessive amounts of animal foods. Both are extreme. I do not understand why Atkins is even discussed seriously here. Perhaps we should look at the Mediterranean Diet or the Okanawan Diet?

[annemj]

This seems to be a rather contentious thread; so I will simply provide you all with my own experiences.

For years I had been vegetarian and had maintained my weight within reason, but I was never thin. A friend of mine tried Atkins in 1996, and it worked; so I switched. I lost a great deal of weight (50 lbs) but was not able to keep it off.

I switched to a vegan diet, but I did not lose weight. (I admit that I was a pretty bad vegan though and did not limit simple carbs, except sweets.) So I went back on Atkins. I lost about 10 lbs. during the first 6 weeks and then lost nothing over the next 2 months. In fact, I gained 3 pounds.

Overall, I can tell you this about my experiences on Atkins:

(1) My generally low (130ish) cholesterol increases to about 175 on Atkins;
(2) If I stay on Atkins for more 4 months, my hair starts thinning;
(3) My digestive system gets all out of whack, not only with irregularity but with heartburn, indigestion, and jabbing pains in my upper colon;
(4) Even though there is no sugar and few carbs, I have candida problems; and
(5) I lack energy, and my brain function is cloudy.

I have recently switched to a macrobiotic diet, and my digestion is better than it has been in years. I am losing weight gradually. I feel much, much better already.

I'm not a physician. I'm not a nutritionist. I'm not a diet expert. But I am a person who has lived in low-carb and in vegetarian land, and while Atkins may work initially to lose some weight, for me it was not a reasonable or legitimate way to keep weight off.

[organicooking]

Hi Group,

If I may, add a different perspective here......

I would like add, from Macrobiotic Guidebook for Living, (Ohsawa) pg 72....

"To cure the body, to heal sickness, thereform is not our aim. It is a worthless goal-it is nothing. The important thing is joyfulness, happiness and amusement in life from morning to night, from night to morning. A million dollars, a strong body, and/or social position are meaningless without them. The biggest longest spiritual life - that is eternal."

With respect to both Atkins and Macrobiotics, I believe that losing weight, how ever it is done, is not the ultimate goal here. People don't lose weight for the sake of losing weight. They wish to gain something by losing weight. Perhaps something pertaining to "the spirit" "or "spiritual", defined by the self.
Health, self respect, self esteem, happiness, joyfulness may all fall under this category of "the spirit".
I believe this is where Atkins and MB can not be compared. Atkins focus is on weight loss. Macrobiotics, in what I believe is its true definition, goes beyond weight loss into "the spirit".

Anyone for Karma Kanten? :o)

Ray :o)

[karnul]

I will try to answer the original question in hope that the original poster hasn't given up on an answer...
I think that annemj has touched the real problem - from what I have seen (my father has been doing Atkins for nearly 2 years) - people on Atkins seem to lose weight, but they pay with their health. So what are the difference between the two approaches?

Basically, Atkins is a diet and a product that is meant to sell you quick weight loss. MB is a suggested way of life that if you choose to adopt could offer health benefits including long term weight loss.
(I personally know someone who has lost nearly 60 kg over 4 years with MB - and he keeps his weight. Incidently with losing his weight he also lost his digestion problems, headaches and sleep problems)

So why does Atkins work? If you really understand MB than you can understand why it works. Atkins is a low carb diet meaning that carbs are not readily available, and the body has to get them from fat reserves - which is the body's way of dealing with excess carbohydrates to begin with.
Also - funnily enough, eating so much animal protein is very tiring for the digestive system and requires a lot of energy - sometimes more energy than the nourishment you get from the food being eaten.
From my understanding of MB (and sadly, from what I have saw in people around me) going on Atkins may cause you lose some weight and even keep that weight for a while, but it will make you overly tired, agitated, and will cause digestive problems in the long term and a tendency for colds and flu.

Moreover, excessive eating of anything will result in accumulation in the body. Maybe you will develop high blood pressure or high cholesterol, mucus or some other discharge, but these are only symptoms of the body being out of balance and not being able to dispose of this excess properly.
In the long terms these accumulations can result in serious health problems. Also, the Atkins diet is very acid forming. While alkaline blood condition keeps us strong, when the blood becomes acid one can easily be affected by colds, flu, and any kind of infection.

In MB we try to adapt the diet according to one's constitution, condition and activities. Atkins diet perhaps can be an appropriate diet for a specific person - lets say that they live in a very cold environment and have to do extremely hard physical labor that requires readily available proteins - under these conditions, eating a lot of animal protein actually makes sense. But for people who live in moderate climates and do office work and hardly do any physical activity this diet can mean disaster.

Everytime I discuss diet with anyone, I keep stressing one thing - listen to your body. Our body is constantly telling us what we really need, and in the end, all we have to do is to listen.

Karny

[annemj]

With all due respect to the last two posters, both of whom made excellent points, I would like to point out that Atkins claims that it too is a lifestyle and health diet, rather than merely a weight loss plan. I will in no way stick up for the Atkins diet. Atkins, and other low carb plans, claim to have health benefits, especially for those with diabetes and heart-related problems. The diets are not there as a short term solution and claim that you should continue to follow their programs to maintain weight and health. In addition, these diets have some scientific data from respectable sources, such as greater cholesterol reduction than a low fat diet, backing up these claims.

So in many ways, these low carb programs are more dangerous than something like a fad 10-day liquid diet that you see in the mall, because nobody thinks the 10-day diet is anything more than a quick weight loss plan. Atkins, et al., claim to be healthy "ways of life," and people have bought into it. Having experienced the problems from that "way of life," I can assure you that it is anything but healthy.

[umeshoyu]

Carrot Daikon drink will shed the pounds. Compliment it with sweet vegetable drink.

[Johnnyzen]

Bottom Line on Atkins: avoid it. Dr. Atkins hd 40 per-cent artery blockage at death. This information was leaked to the Physicians for responsible Medicine. If you want to read about Atkins, go to Dr. John McDoughall's website.

Atkins is responsible for taking us in the directioin of heart problems and many other risks. I repeat. Skinny people eat lots of carbs. The Atkins diet is for couch potatoes, because any active person would fall flat on this diet.

Stick to Macrobiotics, veganism, or even better yet, a solid mostly raw vegan whole foods diet!