Dreaming: Do you have dreams?

[MJS]

Something that has always seemed strange and unreasonable to me as I have studied macrobiotics is the idea that someone in perfect health should not dream at night. But dreams are such a part of life! I was wondering if it is true, if you people who have long practices have really achieved this state where you don't dream. And please explain how it is that dreams are a symptom of imperfect health.
Thanks for your patience.

[Nancy]

Hi MJ,

Your post made me observe my own dreaming and how that has changed/is changing due to my macrobiotic practice.

I think dreaming is activated when we are unbalanced, and not as healthy as at other times, or wrestling with psychological problems. When we are balanced and all's right with the world, we sleep like a log, --in healing, peaceful rest.

When recurrent dreams haunt us and disturb us emotionally all day, --this isn't good. It's not good to lose the joy and productivity of even one day to disturbing thoughts from a dream.

I have found that as I continue through macrobiotics to learn more and more regarding balancing what has been a yin condition for many years...I feel more emotionally balanced, in control, productive, and more a contributing and effective member of society. Healthy, increased, long, restful, undisturbed, healing sleep, and repair at night is the usual.

I've found recently that increased salt intake, with a really quality sea salt (Si Salt),
balances my overly yin condition. With the use of Si Salt, I have incredibly restful, thoroughly unconscious, sleep.

Nancy

[MJS]

Thanks, Nancy, that's interesting to hear. I guess I have many years ahead, full of lots of surprises, to experience these things. Right now, I am so focused on just getting enough energy to make it through a day at somewhat normal speed, and having that happen consistently.
Mara

[qzw52]

Hi MJS

I have often wondered the same thing because to me dreams are a communication from the divine.

But I have a suspicion where George Ohsawa and others get their point of view about dreams.

I suspect that it is important to differentiate between dreams that I would call a communication from God and those dreams that are just the result of a diet using foods that are basically at the yin and yang extremes.

To give an example, I would use the idea of a writer or a creative person who needs to eat something sugary or to have a drink before the creative flow kicks in. When I went to college my roommates often spoke of having to have a beer when writing their papers. At the time, I assumed that the beer had some sort of magical properties. My Son In Law is a computer programer and I have never see so many people addicated to soda and candy.

Much of some of the so called creativity we see on TV and in books are the result of the body balancing out a diet that has far too much emphasis on the two yin and yang extremes imho.

I suspect this holds true for some dreams also.

I hope this added something to this topic.

Best,

Dave

[Roy Collins]

In order to effectivbely answer your question you need to define the term "dream."

If real or true dream it is constantly with you, sleeping or not -- like goal or purpose.

When you talk about dreaming at night you are really talking about reprocessed images from the past or current experiences, or repressed wishes, like finding a mate, etc. Many of these images are fragmented because life and daily food is fragmented.

If you are healthy and eat whole foods, mind and body are balanced and nighttime dreams are minimal or non-existant.

Day dreams are like much like night dreams, but you are more conscious of being "unconsious."

Inpeace, Roy

[qzw52]

Hi Roy,

Dreams: 1) One of the three states of consciousness of humans the the other two are waking and sleeping. 2) The unconscious minds way of satisfying its secret and hidden wishes. (The Soul's wishes) 3) A tool to work off karmic patterns.

Every person dreams every night except only some people actually remember their dreams. Jesus or one of the Christian Saints said "I die daily." That is, he was conscious of leaving his body without having to die first.

There are people who never recall their dreams regardless of how unhealthy they may be or how fragmented their choices of foods and or lifestyles.

There are some other people who are completely healthy, eat a traditional diet that is in harmony with the "order of universe" and even one that I know of who worked with Michio Kushi for a while and is a long time and current macrobiotic adherent who does dream.

Some in this latter group, have learned how to interprete these images and how to do simple techniques to encourage dreaming, and as a result have become more conscious of other states of reality beside what we can see and touch here in our physical lives.

Ah but how to prove what I am saying....

In order to prove that a person would be able to dream, recall their dreams and over time, gain insights into meanings of dreams and satisfy both of our thoughts on this topic one would have to be both a serious student of macrobiotics and openminded enough to try simple techniques in order to encourage the dreaming process.

Roy, if you would ever be sincerely interested in learning how to recall your dreams and then how over time you could learn to understand what your dreams are all about and how this can make you an even more effective neighbor, employee, friend, leader or whatever, and how dreams are just a window into other realties just like our waking lives are a reality, write me privately at qzw52@yahoo.com.

I also wanted to apologize to you.

A while back I had promised to meet you and others in Rhode Island for a class you were teaching about how to harvest and use seaweeds. I promised to bring a watermelon. I failed to show up. I was on vacation in upstate NY at a cabin we rented which did not have a phone. And while I could have gone to a pay phone, I did not know where to call you once you had left your home for the location on the Island that morning.

That day, when we woke up, I just did not possess the physical strength to drive from NY to RI and then Home after your class all the way back to NJ all in one day.

I've been embarassed to write you since then until now.

Best,

Dave

[Roy Collins]

Hi Dave. Thanks for your take on dreams and the definitions you provided. I speak from my own experience as I'm sure you are doing as well. It would be good to have more feed-back on this subject.

Sometime in 1976 I wrote an exhaustive study on dreams that was published in Macrobiotics Today. I used to have a copy but let someone "borrow" it and hence it is gone on to another life.
There was some good and pertinent information in the article and discussed how and why ancient people were living their dreams and didn't need to create them while in slumberland.

As a child I used to have nightmares and sexual fantasies when slept. After becomming macrobiotic I noticed over the years that my dreams (at night) began to diminish, then stop -- or at least my recall of them stopped. Different foods and different quntities of food have a profound effect on dreams. Kushi outlines these in one of his books.

I remember as a teen when I experimented with various types of drugs, especially opium that my dreams became vivid, colorful and animated. Also after taking anesthetic for surgery I had strange but vivid dreams, that didn't make much sense. From these I other experiences I know that what goes into (at least) my body does alter my thinking and dreaming or non-dreaming ability.

I also believe that dreams can be passed down from parents, in a similar way other traqits are passed down. I recall a week-long series of dreams of me saving a woman who was being raped by an assailant under a bush. I couldn't understand this dream and told my mother about because it bothered me so much. Later that day my mother came to me and told me that she had been raped by a soldier when she lived on an Army base in Texas in the 1040's. Instinctively I knew it was her (in my dreams) all along and that I was trying to save her (sic). After this revelation I began to understand a strange fact about my own self and the fact that I had been dating women who had also been raped in the past!

No need to apoplogize for not coming to the camp two years ago. I forgot to bring the miso that weekend and we had to eat sea vegetable soup without it. Too err is to be human.

If we get anymore dream-related messages we may have to move this whole string over to the forum designated for this type of discussion as it is more philosophical in nature than this health forum was set up for.

How big are your dreams? If your dream is to only cross the road then life must be boring. WHat Ohsawa, Kushi and Aihara are talking about when they "dream" it is more in the context of "purpose". Our dreams should be so large than they can not be realized in a lifetime. This make life exciting, no?

[qzw52]

Hi Roy,

Your experience in dreams with a person who was raped was increbible. From the dream experiences that correlated to your waking life, you were able to make a connection both with your mom, which could have been healing for her, and you were able to understand your propensity to have relationships with women who also had that particular devasting experience. (which maybe for your to learn about these things or to be of help to them or both or more) Also, one could also add in other possibilities if one believed in past lives or reincarnation.

However, I did not mean for this conversation to be too esoteric and philosophic. My main point of interest is to have spiritual dreams while living the macrobiotic lifestyle which I believe in for enviromental, life simplification, ethical, spiritual, philosophic and health reasons and more. I have often wondered why Ohsawa, who I admire tremendously, often said that a healthy person would not dream. So in my mind, I have tried to differentiate between what I call spiritual dreaming and what occurs when one is living and eating on the yin and yang extremes.

I had tried to be macrobiotic to the best of my abilities in in the eighties. I feel my understanding of macrobiotics is much better now in terms of understanding balance and what Ohsawa was saying like for instance on page page 30 of Essential Ohsawa:

"I cannot overemphasize the point that macrobiotic living is not rigid adherence to a set of rules. The maintenance of a healthy balance in our daily lives demands from each individual an adaptability and an awareness of the constantly changing influences of many factors. This makes a happy and healthy existence a full time job."

I went to many consultations by many excellent people in the Eighties. Unfortunately, no one picked up my thyroid tumor which had been slow growing in my body for about 20 years and was finally discovered in 1997.

So now I know, for instance, that soy foods can inhibit the function of the thyroid and that seaweeds can aid the function of the thyroid. And this knowledge helps me in my efforts to keep balance.

I also have read Dr. Hulda Clark's book and learned about many things which has enabled me to eat foods now that I could not enjoy years ago such as more fermented type foods.

I hope that what I would call spiritual dreaming and not dreams that occur due to yin and yang extremes in living and in eating, will still be possible.

I was at a spiritual seminar in Washington over Easter and saw the man I spoke of earlier who had worked for Michio in the past and was still living a macrobiotic lifestyle and dietary life. He's spiritual dreaming so I hope to be able to do that too in my macro practice also.

I really appreciate your posting here Roy not only because of your knowledge of so many things which is so incredible but because of the love that comes through when you post also.

Best,

Dave

[Nancy]

Roy and Dave,

Before taking parts of this discussion to the Spirit Forum, I am beginning to have the same experience as you, Roy, and that is a lessening of nightime (sleep) dreaming. As you, Dave, I used to be a big advocate of dreams and dream interpretation. But, in my post below, I am coming to the conclusion that these often disturbing images that linger into the daytime, are not what I want, and not as healthy psychologically for me, as restful sleep. I've recently started using Si Salt, and noticed that it has given me a dead away, restful sleep. I love it. It is a different quality of restful, repairing sleep than I've had in the past. Roy,
I am wondering what your comments are, healthwise on sleep,
salt, and maybe a more yang balance, that would be healthy for those balancing a yin condition.

Dave, I have a comment on what you said regarding Jesus or one of the saints saying, "I die daily". This is most attributed to the Apostle Paul, not Jesus, in his own words. He said, "I die daily, and take up the cross of Jesus Christ." This means, as Christians following Christ, one voluntarily crucifies the old sin nature, and is daily filled with the Holy Spirit, --taking up the cause of Christ, which is to live blameless and sin free lives before God. The Christian is redeemed from sin by Christ's death on the cross for the sinner.

The meaning in Christendom is not, "he is conscious of leaving his body without having to die first." This is astral-projection which Christians do not participate in. If you have a response to my comment, please answer me in the Spirit Forum.

Thanks guys,
Nancy

[qzw52]

Hi Nancy,

It's great that you are having more restful sleep. This is certainly an attribute of a healthy person or a person who is getting healthier. Good news!

I enjoyed your interpretations of the biblical quote too. I respect and acknowledge your beliefs and enjoy differences in viewpoints and experiences on just about any topic.

I will post a link in the spirit forum that was written by David Briscoe, a macrobiotic counselor and teacher out in California. It's an article he wrote about spirituality and therefore is best posted in the spirit forum.

Thanks for a very interesting topic. I learned a lot.

best,

Dave

[Roy Collins]

Nancy and Dave. Thank you both for your posts, kind words, ideas and suggestions. I looked through my files at great length the other day and did find a photo-copy of the article I wrote on dreams for the Macrobiotic (magazine) before I lent it to a friend who did not return it. It is rather long to copy over and I have hardly any extra time running my new company so I can only quote a few sentences at this time. Maybe at a later date I will revise the article and submit it to Cybermacro's article section.

I'm sure a lot more information has been discovered since this article was written (Oct 1977). This part has something to do with "alignment" during the sleep state:

"In the state of sleep/rest we are unoccupied with aoutward and material objects, therefore, the whole organism is relatively free from stress whih allows organic functioning to operate fluidly -- overcoming blockages or barriers caused by the conscious awake brain. While asleep our physical senses operate only slightly. The eyes are perhaps the only sense organs which are totally inoperative; the rest work with subliminal awareness. At this time (while aslee) man is at his most helpless state and quite vulerable to both physical and psycological attack.

To compensate for physical impairment the intuitive functioning of the autonomic nervous system works at a much greater degree. Our receptivity to invisible energy patterns becomes fully in tune. We unconsiously release ourselves from bodily identification , and as Yogananda (Indian guru who wrote Autobiography of a Yogi) says 'and of merging the life force with healing currents in the main brain region and in the six sub-dynamos of our spinal center and recharged by the cosmic energy that sustains all life.' "

Dave wrote:

> My main point of interest is to have spiritual dreams while living the macrobiotic lifestyle which I believe in for enviromental, life simplification, ethical, spiritual, philosophic and health reasons and more. I have often wondered why Ohsawa, who I admire tremendously, often said that a healthy person would not dream. So in my mind, I have tried to differentiate between what I call spiritual dreaming and what occurs when one is living and eating on the yin and yang extremes. <

I don't know what "spiritual dreaming" means. The term SPIRITUAl is quite ambiguous and open to a variety of interpretation which may include anything from empathy with living things, increase awarness, a theological vision, sublime feelings, etc., From a macrobiotic and Taois viewpoint, however we can associate spirituality with invisible forces which are opposed to material, physical fores, both of which are one -- no division. Like night and day, life and death, sleep and awake, yin and yang, etc. So you need to give us YOUR definition of spiritual dreaming so we can understand better what you mean. From the same article on dreaming (above) I quote the following which may be relative to your question:

"Dr. Leonid Vasiliev, a leading Soviet psychologist and parapsychologist states at 'dreams contain only what we have experienced consciously or unconsciously. They are nothing more than a reprocessing by a partially awake brain of erratically tangled fragments and traces of some past experience of what, at one time or another, ahd seen, heard, thought or read.' (I also subitted that some dreams are experiences passed down from ancestors like DNA.) Aristotle declares all visions of sleep are produced by the senses and the imagination."

I did read the Briscoe link that you posted in the Spirituality Forum here and found it somewhat helpful for me to understand a little more about God. I think it is good that Briscoe thinks its a good idea to have different interpretaions of God, but disagree (and find it a demeaning) that people who believe in God have more fulfilling lives than non-believers. This is an absurd assumption and one that is overly ethno-centric. There are billions of people who live on this planet, including all infants (and animals, plants, etc) that do not believe in God(s) that lives that are full and happy as believers. This God equation, in my opinion, has nothing to do with macrobiotics. It is a separate issue altogether. Macrobiotics embraces all people from all walks of life, with or without religion. No one is greater or lesser because of his/her belief or non-belief in a deity. Many of our current world problems are due to cetain religious beliefs and a take on God that wishes destruction to all that do not follow that path. Sounds like the Crusades revisited!

As an American Briscoe has this right and freedom to express his thoughts but as a macrobiotic he must understand that if he says belivers in God(s) have better lives than non-belivers, then he does much to diminish the all-embracing vision of macrobiotics and shows that he is a dualist at heart. So thank you Dave for pointing this fact out to us. You were correcct to place your post in the Spiritual forum.

I hope this helps.

In peace, Roy

[qzw52]

Hi Roy,

The discussion on dreaming and eating a macrobiotic diet and living a macrobiotic lifestyle, can be discussed here. The article written by David Briscoe is not about dreams and was originally posted in the Spirit section and obviously should and will be answered in the Spirit section only. At least by me that is.

What is a spiritual dream?

Dreams are a spiritual tool of the Holy Spirit to help you find your way to God. There is so much more to life than you'll ever find in something as narrow as the human state of consciousness.

Macrobiotics teaches that healthy people do not dream. Specifically Ohsawa stated in discussing happiness: "Sleep soundly and peacefully. Never dream, never move."

The dream you had where you learned through the dream that your Mom had been harmed, something she had never told you about but that you learned about only via a dream, is one example of a spiritual dream. This dream also gave you some insights potentially (assuming you pursued the insights) about why so many of your relationships had been with women who had been similarly harmed.

I believe that it is possible to have dreams that will give us glimpses of the future, give suggestions for healing, share insights into our relationships (such as your dream where you got an insight into your relationship with your Mom and your relationships with your girlfriends) and that dreams can steer us more directly to God. Additionally, I believe it will be possible to have these types of spiritual dreams as differenitated by nightmares and such caused by eating and living on the yin/yang extremes, while living a macrobiotic lifestyle and eating a macrobiotic diet.

But, I will have to prove this for myself. I will live the beautiful macrobiotic lifestyle and eat the fine macrobiotic diet for years and while doing so, will be keeping my dream journal at my bedside, and will be doing some simple techniques to encourage dream recall.

I will not of course, however, force my beliefs on anyone but will come back to this discussion thread many years from now and let you guys know what I have found. It could very well be that dreams are just too much pizza and beer! And if so, I will say so and let everyone know.

Mainly, the discussion initiated by MJS, "Do You Dream" is fascinating and was certainly worthy of the discussion given it by this really nice marcobiotic chat group.

I appreciate all the insights from everyone who particiipated very much.

Best,

Dave

[Bruce Paine]

Hi,

As I have stated before, if not here, then somewhere else, that for at least 6 months of the time that I lived in a macrobiotic study house, here in Boston, back in the mid 1970s, I did not dream (or wake up remembering any dreams) but awoke feeling refreshed and energized.

I believe that if one's body is relatively pure and one is eating balanced food, then maybe one will sleep without dreaming.

Interestingly enough, Michio Kushi, in his "The Book of Macrobiotics", has much to say about dreams, both "life dreams" and "night dreams".

The following in a quote taken from the Chapter "Human Diseases:Cause and Recovery"/Sub Chapter:"Cause of Difficulties"/sub Sub Chapter:"Have a Good Sleep":

"Good sleep is not sleeping for a long time but sleeping deeply for a short time. Good sleep is a result of energetic activity--physical and mental--during the time we are awake. While we are sleeping, we should usually not dream. If we remember a dream after we are awake, it is because our sleep is not deep enough. Nightmares, cloudy dreams, and fragmental dreams are all signs of physical and mental unrest. To see these dreams frequently is an indication of developing mental illness. Suppose we are frequently frightened with the horrors of nightmares. We are seeing "daymares" through the same physical and mental quality while we are awake. When we are awake, we surround ourselves with groundless suspicions, illusory enemies, and other delusions that turn our life into a battlefield. If we eat macrobiotically and develop our health, we will never suffer such rootless dreams--day or night--of any kind. From time to time, we may see a dream that comes true. A true dream is one that also happens in reality--for example, showing us a new invention, communicating with the spirits of our ancestors, or alerting us to impending natural catastrophe. Thus when we see no dream or only see a true dream during our sleep, we are seeing real circumstances; and whatever we dream as true corresponds to our activities and occurances during the daytime."

The following is a prayer by Michio Kushi (from the same book) that includes an example of a true dream:

We all have come from infinity.
We all live within infinity,
We shall all return to infinity,
We are all manifestations of one infinity,
We are all sisters and brothers of one infinite universe,
Let us love one another,
Let us help each other,
Let us encourage each other,
And let us all together continue to realize
The endless dream of one peaceful world.

-May 1976

My sentiments, exactly.

Thank you, very much.

Bruce Paine

[MJS]

Just want to say this whole discussion has been really interesting and helpful! As my health has been improving, I am sleeping less though in a much more natural sunset/sunrise kind of rhythm, and I get frustrated thinking I need more sleep to improve more quickly, but now I think maybe it is the quality, not the length, that I need to concentrate on. I am curious, how much sleep do you all average per night?

[Nancy]

I have just a few comments for the dream team. Bruce, thanks for the reference to Michio's, "The Book of Macrobiotics". That's one I haven't cracked much, and will read the sections you referenced, nice post.

Roy, I would be very interested in the article you wrote on dreams, if you add it to Cybermacro's Article section, as you have time.

Dave, I think as in the section Bruce quoted, we should have predominently restful sleep without dreaming. There is a healthy type of true dream, that I have no doubt, will come through and be remembered by a person in good health. So, I have no qualms about losing the ability to dream. These are the spiritual dreams, a message about something important one should do, special insights, or a portend of the future.

In college, for a creative writing class, we were instructed to keep a dream journal by the bedside to encourage dreaming, and take the journal in hand as soon as we had a memory before it floated away. This practice encourages a high percentage of memory of dreams. I found this to be very true. I remembered more and more dreams every night. But, I found rather than it being helpful, I became very emotionally disturbed, and the resultant stress didn't help me creatively in the class or anywhere else in my life. So, I stopped the practice, as not a healthy one for me. Just a comment on my personal experience with a dream journal. It's good to participate in what you are interested in, and find out what works for you. This is macrobiotic, non credo.

Mara, your sleeping rhythm sounds healthy if it is matching sunset/sunrise, somewhat. I am finding for myself, that it is a good practice to be very physically active all day, and extend that as long into the evening as possible (we all have a lot to do). Then go to bed no earlier than 10PM, trying to not eat in the evening after dinner, anywhere from 5-7PM. I think bancha tea with lemon, if desired, is a fine evening relaxant and the lemon could add yin, if needed.

I usually awake at 6AM, on the button, without an alarm clock.
For the most part I wind down at 10PM, and am actually asleep between 11-1130PM, usually. So, for me it is about 7 hours. I find that if I do eat anything after dinner, then I might dream.
Nancy