Osteoperosis

[jane b]

Has anyone heard of long term macrobiotic lifestyle followers developing osteopososis?


Why have they developed this and what can be done about it?

Jane B

[Roy Collins]

Hi Jane. I personally have not met any long time macrobiotics developing this problem, mainly because this problem is attributed to lack of estrogen and excess protein. The macrobiotic diet -- especially the vegetarian version may have as much as ten times the amount of estrogen as the Standard American Diet (SAD). When high protein foods are eaten more calcium gets flushed out of the body but this amount is greatly reduced when vegetable protein such as soy is used on a daily baisis. This degenerative disease usually affects women over
50 years old. The most common form occurs in women after menopause.

Researchers have found that fewer Asian women have osteoporois even though they consume less calcium (Messina & Messina, '94/Fujita '96). Cultured soy products (fermented soy)
have been found to be better absobed and more fully utilized within the body than regular soy products.

While geneics plays a big part in many degenerative forms of illness, osteoporois can usually be avoided by adding more green vegetable, beans, seaweeds, and fermented soy products to the daily diet while backing off a bit on high protein foods. Walking, free weight lifting, and aerobics also helps to increase bone density to a high degree. Vit D is needed to absorb calcium from food and incorporate it into bones. A hormone imbalance, such as parathyroid or chronic renal failure (as well as past use of corticosteroids, barbituates, anti-convulsants, thyroid hormones, alcohol and cigarette smoking) can also lead to osteoporosis.

In general, however, the standard macrobiotic diet (in theory)
along with a regular exercise program should prevent osteoporosis.

In peace, Roy

[Elizabeth Sunderland]

Hey Guys,

Sorry, Roy, I beg to differ. i can think of at least three people, off hand, who are facing this problem- all long term macros. Eating too strictly for too long- lacking oil, minerals, protien- eating out too much, giving too much to others, over activity, too much travel (flying exposes one to as much radiation as getting 10 X-rays)...all these things are depleting, from a macro point of view. Over all it is from creating a dry, depleted condition.

Elizabeth

[Roy Collins]

Hi Elizabeth. What part do you disagree on? I fail to see a discrepency between the two lines of thought. An overly strict macro diet with over-activity is not the same as the standard macro diet that incorporates fermented soy foods, plenty of green vegetables, beans, seaweeds, etc., plus a regular exercise program as I outlined. Perhaps you are talking about people who are juggling with extremes and are calling themselves macrobiotics, which, in itself is a contradiciton of balance and moderation. In general, a macrobiotic who eats widely and lives a life of moderation will not suffer from osteroporous...

In peace, Roy

In peace, Roy

[Peter25]

Roy, it seems to me that you're basing your beliefs on macro theories and not on what's going on in the real world. This is a message send to another discusion list.

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It seems that a new (or maybe not so new) problem is arising in long term followers of the macrobiotic diet -- osteoporosis. Several long term advocates of the diet are suffering from the problem, some quite severely. Broken ribs and thin bones have been reported. What I find intereting is that some are choosing to follow even more strictly the very diet that caused the problems in the first place. Is there no sanity left?

One very prominent long term macrobiotic advocate suffered multiple fractures of the ribs, spine and feet, his wife suffered broken ribs in a light exercise class. Now understand we are not talking about someone who was practising macrobiotics in a casual fashion, these are serious students and teachers, nationally known.

As I understand it they are now taking calcium, magnesium and other supplements and are thankfully improving dramatically. My advice would be to not expect any public recognition of problems caused by following the macrobiotic diet from counselors or teachers. All you will hear is that who ever is suffering from the problem did not follow advice correctly.

Vernon

-----

I myself suffered from severe osteoperosis after following the strict kushi-diet. And no, I did NOT do anything wrong with my cooking. I walked one hour each day and didn't engage in any abnormal physical activities.

And what about all the countless macro-children here in Holland who suffered or suffer from weak bones or deficiencies in their growth? Countless parents were forced to switch to a diet with dairy out of pure desperation. I've read even one of the hardcore-macro's admit that most of the macro-children that were brought up with dairy looked healtier than most of those that had not taken dairy. But many people are just too ingorant and forget that despite how nice all those macro-theory-books are, the most important thing here is practise, not theory.

Peter

[Roy Collins]

Peter. Sorry, your asumption is wrong. My information is based not only on long time experience in the health field but also upon over 30 years of reseach and practice. As I stated earlier I AGREE that a strict macrobiotic is not a healthful practice when carried to extremes. Please re-read my posts. I stress a more restrictive macro diet only when more acute forms of disease symptoms crop up. Your REALITY and mine are quite different I suppose, but please be courteous when you address me and any others on this forum or it will be you last post here. Again, please re-read what I have written and stop shooting from the hip.

I advocate a wide variety of both plant and animal foods depending on season, climate, geographic location and individual make-up. Funny how many animals have storng bones that DO NOT drink dairy but take in calcium and magnesium from green plant foods.

I hope this helps.

In peace, Roy

[Bill]

Peter,

Are you saying macrobiotics is at fault for you and others contracting osteoporosis?

Bill

[Peter25]

I'm absolutely convinced that the lack of animal foods was the cause of my osteoperosis. If you consider the diet as it is described in all of the Kushi literature as the macrobiotic way of eating than yes, that diet was the cause of my osteoperosis. My problem could easily have been avoided if I had eaten strong animal foods at least every day and not just in moderate quantities. And the truth about dairy is often exagerated in the macro-community, moderate amounts of dairy can improve the health for some.

It's only since the last few months that I'm starting to recover since I've started to eat red meat or eggs twice a day and eat less of anything else. I'm not saying that this is also the solution to others who suffered from shortages due to the macro-diet. But I come from a background of heavy-meat eating and the sudden switch to a diet with only 2-3 times a week a small piece of fish have taken me to a condition with such great shortages, that I need a lot of extremes right now to catch up.

Macrobiotics doesn't need to be a diet that can lead to shortages with some individuals. What's important is that you not take too seriously what the kushi-books or kushi-institute says. You must listen to your own body, not the theories. The sad thing is, many macrobiotic counseleres are so dogmatic that they will never advice someone to eat more animal foods or at least chicken or meat, even if they are thin to the bone. They see this thin condition as 'too yang' so you shouldn't eat meat, which was an awfull mistake they did to me and many others.

A sad thing is that most of the people who suffer from severe shortages due to the kushi diet just return to their old way of eating and you never hear of them again out of shame for the macro-community. Or they are just ridiculed and pointed out as someone who didn't follow the instructions properly. Only the people where the diet did work for remain, and those that follow a way of eating that's a little more wider like the advices that Roy is giving.

So what is exactly macrobiotics? Can I say that I'm still eating macrobiotic now that I eat red meat, eggs and dairy? Theoretically I can, but it breakes the standard view of macrobiotics so far apart that I see no point of using the word macrobiotics in my diet. I tried many different ways of eating. Life has been a constant education for me in the last years. I now know that there's no vegan diet on this earth that I can live on. And eating just small amounts of fish every day is by far not sufficient. It has taken me time to accept this, and now that I've done so, I feel more free than ever.

My advice to others is, listen to your body first. If you feel better after eating a lot of raw apples, then experiment more with that. Forget the beautifull theories, forget the fact that's 'too yin'. You might make yourself more sick doing so, but in time you will learn. Only follow the kushi-diet for a short time, perhaps 6 months. Then try eating things that are totally ommited in the kushi diet, and see if you feel better or worse. If you only eat the things that are in the Kushi diet than you never learn what your body needs because you are only eating an extremely small variety of foods.

Take care,

Peter

[Roy Collins]

Peter, If you are eating "strong animal food on a daily basis" and are living in a temperate climate it would be better to cally your diet a "Paleo-diet" which is exactly what this schol of thinking promotes. If you read any history of macrobiotics or its etymology
(one is in the article on this list) you will see that from the most ancient times to the modern the term macrobiotics, or yangshengshu, has always been a plant-based diet with only a minimum of animal food. Most of the great world civilizations of the ancient era did not strong animal foods or use dairy products on a regular, daily basis. See more recent reports on the Okinawan Diet and read what they are eating and see their longevity and morbidity reports. More fish, yes, that is macro. Macro is balance by season, climate, age, eco-evolution, natural
and environmental. Furthermore there are numerous studies that state that eating meat actually leads to osteoporosis and that small amounts of calcium are better absorbed by the body than large amounts.

Macrobiotics is has been very clearly defined for quite some time and what you are suggesting does not conform to its theories or definition. See my aritcle in the AUgust issue of the Sino-Platonic Papers (University of Penna.) that will explain in detail what macrobiotics is and what it isn't. Your definition does not fit within the parameters, sorry.

In peace, Roy



Roy's Paper

[Peter25]

So, what is your advice to me? To get back to a diet that conforms more to the macrobiotic theories and definition? To eat less animal food and thereby make myself weak and sick again? I said this before and you must print this into your head: I tried and tried and tried and tried but there's absolutely no way in which my body accepts a diet with only little amounts of animal food. What you are doing now is the sad thing that many others have done before, the total disbelief for the fact that there are many people out there who can not just switch to macrobiotics within a day without severe long term consequences. You are basing all your beliefs on two things, the macro-theory books and your own personal physical condition and those of your close relatives. But there's absolutely no way in which I can convince you that there are people out there who unlike you almost died or even beyond that because they followed the proper macrobiotic guidelines. I went to the Cooking is an Art class of the Kushi-Institute and lost two-and a half kilos in just one week, although I was already severely underweight. Now how can you compare your own condition with mine?

Even if those people would have done some things wrong, which is by the exception of a few cases not true, then how can it go so terribly wrong? How can one say that the use of a little bit too little oil, or a little bit too much salt, or a little bit too little fish, or the use of too long/short cooking times etc, etc could result in such devestating effects? Even people who eat MacDonalds & Coca-Cola every day and don't bother about any cooking methods don't get this kind of severe osteoperosis. It is purely because of a shortage. You read that! SHORTAGE. A word that unlike the word 'excess' many macro's don't even dear to use. An excess can lead to osteoperosis, in that you are completely right, but so can a SHORTAGE.

No doubt here will be a time when my shortages are gone and my body will ask for less animal food. When that time comes I will change my eating habits according to my needs. But I will not listen to what the books or theories say. That's one thing that George Oshawa (although he was human enough to make a lot of serious mistakes) knew, but everyone else after him forgot.

Don't get me wrong about my view of macrobiotics. I greatly appreciate all that I have learned from it. I too have a severe chronic illness (although I always had strong bones), and saw my condition greatly improve in the first 6 months of the kushi-diet. Including several small problems I'm completely cured from. But as time progressed, I got new problems. Roughly speaking, I went from an extrme excess to an extreme shortage and I'm now climbing my way up to the middle. I first didn't dare switching back to more animal food because I was afraid that my old problems would come back. But none of that happened, I only saw my condition improve. I was also afraid that my eyes would turn sanpaku again just like before the kushi-diet, but that also didn't happen, everything got better.

What wories me most is that this happened so many times before, and after me this will happen many times more. As long as the hardcore-macro's don't recognize this problem and keep claiming that everything that works for them must work for others too, or only acnowledge small differences between individuals and not the major differences. Than there will always be many people who shy away from the macro-diet, whom you never hear from again or they will continue the diet and end up dead or in a wheelchair.

Don't ever again try to dissencourage me of eating 'too much' animal foods. It has taken me a long time to find the strength to ingore this sort of bad advice given to me so that my condition finally improved.

With good intentions,

Peter

[Roy Collins]

Peter. What is important at this juncture is that you are feeling healthy. Macrobiotics is not for all people and not all people are for macrobiotics. Best to use your intuition as barometer for your health. I do not endorse the Kushi style macro diet as a regular practice, nor do I support the idea that macro can heal all diseases, nor do I support the idea of jumping into macro overnight, but rather going into it gradually and letting your body slowly get familiar with the unfamiliar nutrients that it takes in.
I do not endorse vegetarian style macrobiotic diet. not all macrobiotics think the same way, although Kushi may have the largest corner on this practice in the US.

Osteoporous occurs more frequently in people who eat meat than in people who do not eat meat. It is the major cause of disability in older people, especially women, affecting more than 25 million people in the US (NIH '94). More than half of women and about one third men will experience fracturing bones caused by osteoporosis during their lives (Ross '96). The more animal protein we eat, the more calcium we flush out of the body (Kerstetter & Allen '89), but vegetable protein, such as soy, and more especially FERMENTED soy protein, causes less calcium reduction through excretions than animal protein (Breslau et al, "88). Researchers observe that fewer Asian women have osteoporosis even though they consume less calcium (Fujita '96 & Messina & Messina '94).

A recent study on postmenopausal women who were given soy protein were compared to women given dairy protein. Bone density was compared after a 6 month period. Results showed milk-protein group lost more bone mineral and bone density than the soy protein group. In addition the soy protein group showed increased minerals and density of bone than dairy protein group (Potter et al '98). These are just some of the facts.

So my suggestion to you is if you want to continue to eat meat and eggs every day, don't say you are macrobiotic, say you are following the PALEO-DIET. If you want to resume macrobiotic way you mast make transition slowly, eventually getting rid of red meat and most dairy products and replacing it with cold water fish, shell fish, and more fermented soy foods, lots and lots of green veggies, raw and cooked, good quality oil for cold season cooking, and less salt overall. More fruits can be taken if more animal food is used. Please read the older posts on animal food in the moutainark fourm section on this page as well as article by Gale Jack on this topic. We have gone with this thread on a number of occassions now and there seems to be no need to rehash everything that has already been written.

I am in the prosess of forumulating a cultured soy drink that is naturally fortified with calcium (from sesame seeds) and is brown-rice and fruit based. It is especially good for people with osteoporosis, cancer recovery, and for women who are going through menopause or are post menopausal. I will make an announcement on this discovery in a very short time. Stay tuned.

I have nothing else to add to this thread on osteoporosis and will not ebtertain anymore Kushi diet bashing ideas here. They have their own website and the Paleo-diet websites are pretty interesting to. I hope this information has helped you to decide which way you want to go. I hold no judgement over your decisions. I gave you only the facts absed on my experience and references.


In peace, Roy

[Peter25]

Just to clarify one misunderstanding, I didn't say I consider my new way of eating macrobiotic, just read my second reply. I agree with that on what you said.

Thanks for your reply, you have been helpfull.

Cheers,

Peter

[Roy Collins]

Thanks for the clarification Peter and thanks for the discussion.

In peace, Roy

[Bill]

Peter,

You mentioned in one of your posts that you practiced 'macrobiotics' and got osteoporosis anyway. You said it wasn't the cooking that was responsible, that you did it correctly.

First, I'm wondering what you meant by that. For instance, were you doing your own cooking, what were you cooking, and what was your understanding regarding cooking. Second, I'd like to hear your explanation of what you understand macrobiotics to be.

Thanks,

Bill

[Peter25]

Look Bill, perhaps it's because you read my prior posts a bit too fast but if you did you should have known that it's not 'you practised 'macrobiotics' and got osteoporosis anyway ' but instead 'you practiced 'macrobiotics' and got osteoporosis because of that way of eating' If I had never started on a macro-diet I would never have gotton osteoperosis except perhaps on a older age. I'm 25 now, I lost my bone-mass to a point where spontaneous fractions could occur in just 2.5 years. You're giving other people who visit this forum a wrong impression by suggesting that I would have gotten osteoperosis anyway. But perhaps this wasn't your intention.

Yes, I did my own cooking. I followed the guidelines that were given during cooking classes and in the macro-books and thereby making some minor adjustments that everyone makes that suit more to the personal self, time of year, etc. I could go into extensive detail on what percentage I ate from each type of food, my cooking methods etc but there's no point in that because you already know that. I was following the standard macro-diet as if in all the books from Kushi and most other macro-literature and unfortunately not those guidelines as given by people who are a bit more open minded like Jay, although that wouldn't have been sufficient for me either.

You ask me what I understand macrobiotics to be? Hmmm, now I have a dilema. I would like to say that macrobiotics is a way of living that each individual on this planet can live a healthy life with but then that would mean that Jay's understanding of macrobiotics is in fact not macrobiotic in my point of view. I cannot live healthy unless I eat animal foods every day and for some that is considered to be not macrobiotic. But I don't want to claim that, I do not want to claim that not everybody can eat macrobiotic and I also don't want to claim that I'm eating macrobiotic right now because that's not the case in my point of view. So what must I say without being offensive to anyone?

Perhaps it's better if all of us try to look at thing from a wider perspective and put our heads together to find out why some people are getting osteoperosis by following a macrobiotic diet. Perhaps I can find some more info here in Holland and then I could post it here in this forum. Or others like Elizabeth Sunderland could get in contact with those macro's suffering from osteoperosis and make them post their comments here. If we can level ourselves to a better understanding than other cases of osteoperosis might be prevented.

What I think is an important question: does anyone actually know a person who got cured from osteoperosis by following a macrobiotic livestyle? If so, than that person could also post some comments here, that would be helpfull.

Peace,

Peter