Osteoperosis

[Stephanie]

Hi Everyone,

It's been a while since I've posted. Thank you for the discussion on Osteoporosis. I've followed it with interest... and it seems to have moved a little into philosophising at this point, but I want to say I'm grateful for the comments, especially the three articles, which I have printed out and will read when I get off line.

I'm trying to limit my computer time.

I've been macro only 6 years, and not exatly a stereotype, model macrobot at that. I've recently (due to two falls) been xrayed and found to have "ostoepenia" and degenerative bond disease in the lumbar spine, sacrum and left hip. Osteopenia, I was told is a pre-Osteoporetic condition. I have just come back from 4 months at the Kushi Institute, where I went through a week of Way To Health, and was a volunteer worker, and totally emersed in the Macrobiotic Way. While there I had a consultation, and am now struggeling to fit all the recommendations and remedies, into my new lifestyle. Easy does it, they tell me, and I must say, though I agree with their advise, my personality is one that is Gung Ho, and wants to work it all in as quickly as possible. So I struggle, mainly with my own ambition to improve my cooking skills toward balance, and increase my understanding of yin and yang and the 5 transformations and how it all fits in. I also studied do-in, and was the recipient of several shiatsu masages while there.

I am not healed by any means, and still climb the three flights to my NY apartment, on "all=fours" by evening time; but I've improved. I haven't used my cane for almost two months, and the scholeosis (sp?) in my lower spine is improving greatly. The pain, which was a constant level 9 - 10 in June, is now neither constant nor ever level 9 or 10, and as I write, I'm not even in pain.

Carry Wolf - one of the KI cooking instructors blithly said, "cooking is food is only 10% of the big picture! Now lets don't start a hughe debate over her statement please!. She includes many facets, like cooking, cooking for yourself, the energy of the cook, the many kinds of energies involved in our lives which include inside energies and outside energies of our inner and outer invironments. and many more. Attitude is a biggie. I was the recipient of so many gifts and blessings while I was there - from the staff, instructors and students and guests, that I would require much of the rest of my life to recount them!

But the reason I mention Carry's statement is that I agree that one persons "perfect" macro is not another's. Today's perfect balanced meal for me is not tomorrow's, because I will be different tomorrow. I don't put too much trust in my counselors. They are just human and learning as I am. But I trust myself to try what they say and intuit the results. And to keep coming back so we can both learn.

I'm so glad to have people like you here still putting out your thoughts and showing the world that it's worth it to try our best.

Be well,
sk

[Bo.Engborg]

As I wrote before, I tried living without meat and egg, for more than 15 years, and I wasn't satisfied. Now when I include meat and egg I feel much better. So to say that plant proteins can fill the needs is not correct, at least not for everyone. I have met several other people with a similar experience.

Then of course there is a lot of criticism that can be raised against how most of the meat and dairies are produced. It is more important with animal foods to choose organic quality.

And I am not talking about large amounts of animal foods, small amounts amd of good quality.

Bo Engborg

[Johnnyzen]

So you are saying that meat is a different protein? I verage 50 to 70 grams of protein daily on a vegan diet. It is a myth that vegans lack protein. If you are correct, then Ohsawa and Kushi are full of beans. Neither one of them advocate any animal food except fish, adn even fish is not considered necesary. Perhaps many feel better on meat because they just want to eat it, they enjoy the flavor. My son is a birthright vegetarian, He has never tasted meat, and is now an adult. His health is excellent, and he graduated summa cum laude from a fine university.
Read Alex Jack's excellent book, LETR FOOD BE THY MEDICINE. Meat is an addicting food, according to Dr. Neal Barnard, as is chocolate, sugar and dairy products. His reaearch jives very well with Macrobiotic theory.

[Bo.Engborg]

I didn't say that I vegans lack protein. It is very difficult to achieve protein deficiency.
But there is a difference of quality.
I had a big resistens to start eating meat after avoiding it for so many years, I used to argue much the same way you do.
I havent noticed that meat is addictive, when I don't eat it I don't get meat cravings, I just feel less strong after a week or two. But maybe for some people it is really addictive?
I don't know about Kushi but Ohsawa ate meat.
And I never said everyone has to eat meat. I am just saying that vegan food is not optimal for everyone. It is not difficult to find healthy vegans or healthy meat eaters. It doesn't really prove anything.

Bo Engborg

[Johnnyzen]

If there is a difference of protein quality, latest research shows that plant protein is actually superior, because it contains other nutrients and fiber. Meat has no fiber. Plant proteins are more easily digested. It is news to me that Ohsawa ate meat! Where did you hear this?

Although eggs have a very accessable protein, soy is perhaps even better. Strength does not come from eating animals. elephants do not eat animals. Strength comes from oats, rice, etc, the staff of life foods.

[Bo.Engborg]

Elephants also don't eat cooked grains so it is not relevant for the discussion.

If there is a mismatch between the theories and my experiences, I tend to believe in the experiences. I tried the vegan diet, it didn't work for me.

- Bo E -

I have just found the CyberMacro site and am thoroughly enjoying the articles and recipes. Particularly, the articles on Osteoporosis. I have been cooking mostly macrobiotic for 19 years since I was diagnosed with colon cancer. Since then, apart from about 6 #'s of weight loss, I have enjoyed abundant health, have a lot of energy and all of the tests that I have been given shows that the cancer has not returned.

However, several months ago,my doctor suggested that I go for a bone density test. The results that came back were shocking. It showed that I already had osteoporosis. She immediately suggested that I go on Fosomax or a similar drug. I didn't want to do that, so I consulted a Naturopathic doctor in the area. He was thorough and took some blood tests to see whether there was anything else going on to cause the rapid bone loss that I was experiencing. The results came back negative apart from low white blood cells and platelets. He suggested that I take supplements (which I readily agreed thinking that it would be the natural approach) After only one day of taking them, I felt so ill, nauseated constantly and as if I had a bad case of the flu. I called him and he said that they were probably too strong and I should cut the dose in half. My confidence in him completely gone, I decided to take a water soluble calcium/magnesium supplement instead that I seem to tolerate very well.

I know that prior to my diagnosis, I had got rather lazy in my cooking as I always seem to be so busy. Now I am trying really hard to include more green vegetables, sea vegetables and soy products in my diet.

I have been trying to read as much as I can about the disease, particularly from a macrobiotic viewpoint but to be honest, I am confused. I am not sure that I can beat this disease without some kind of supplements.

Any suggestions?

During a presentation by Dr. Larry Kushi, a class at the Kushi Institute quizzed him re: calcium. It was stated that the Western medical view was that calcium requirements recommended seemed to be about 1000 mg for regular usage, 1500 mg for lactating women. What did Dr. Larry Kushi think of that, and what were macrobiotic people actually getting in their diet? He replied that macrobiotic people were actually getting about 400 mg a day, and he wasn't averse to people taking calcium to remedy that, but to take it in the form of calcium citrate.

Later, quizzing Michio about that, Michio replied that calcium supplement intake could cause lower back problems. Another counselor there replied also that instead of using calcium, they had great success in reversing osteoporosis with such things as dried tofu preparations, sesame seeds, greens cooked with oil, etc. and that the results were excellent. Mention of using small, dried, bony fish ground with tan sesame seeds as a daily condiment was also in the conversation. Naturally, heavy use of greens was also advocated.

Later, observations have occurred by myself and others that some people are indeed having problems with rather premature osteoporosis.

Further discussions have revealed that a few counselors/cooking teachers are finding that using the soaking water from grains is contributing to the depletion. Interesting point.

Calcium citrate with magnesium and Vitamin D supplements have been helping me personally with reducing hip pain associated with perimenopause, and there is little or no back pain. The doctor is currently recommending a bone density scan, and you can bet I'll be making dried tofu more often now, along with oil-sauteeing the greens more often and utilizing the other suggestions observed during classes and talks with other macro professionals and long-time macros and whatever useful information comes up here in the forum.

I appreciate the dialog and would also like to point out the obvious: some of us have different constitutions, therefore different needs.

Thanks for all the dialog. Let's keep this thread rolling and see what other long-term macros and counselors have to say...

[dkornels]

Osteoporosis is more common among women than men. Obviously because most women bare children which takes a toll on their calcium/magnesium supply and many do not work to replace it. A pregnant woman may even find her teeth hurting as calcium is taken from them. In malnutrioned 3rd world countries many women loose most of their teeth after several babies.

Calcium/magnesium is also pulled from the bones to balance the body's blood pH. It would seem that a macrobiotic diet would greatly help in preventing bone loss as this is a diet predominantly alkaline.

Yet, our modern world is very stressful which again, stress will lower the pH meaning we need even more cal/mag.

Diet isn't the only thing. Most live a very sedentary lifestyle. When we do weight bearing exercise, the stress on our bones will also pull available cal/mag from the blood and increase bone density. Tests on elderly women with osteoporosis using rebounders were able to build up bone density considerably.

[Klara]

Sorry for my ignorance, but please explain why using soaking water from grains adds to depletion, as whatever was in the grains that went into the water is being cooked back, no?? I thought the point of soaking was it helped digestion, and if we're not digesting well, what good is whatever we're putting into our bodies? Also no mention was made of chewing which also is an aid for digesting, which I guess means truly absorbing whatever good there is in the food. How do you chew pills???

Also, I know exercise is important and a big lack in my routine. We are considering purchasing a treadmill - anyone have some encouraging info so I'll be more motivated to use it? We have a rebounder but I find it so boring. I enjoy real walking, but find I just don't go out that often for one reason or another.

Thanks.

Klara