Osteoperosis

[Peter25]

Did I say Jay? I meant to say Roy.

Sorry

[Bruce Paine]

Peter,

Here are some other macrobiotic resources relating to osteoporosis:

Learning About Osteoporosis
by Patrick McCarty
( http://www.imss.macrobiotic.net/osteoporosis1.html )


The Calcium Question by Annemarie Colbin
( http://www.natural-connection.com/ki...n/calcium.html )

Food and Our Bones : The Natural Way to Prevent Osteoporosis
by Annemarie Colbin
Paperback - 352 pages (July 1998) Plume; ISBN: 0452278066
( http://www.natural-connection.com/bo...ie_colbin.html ).

You are already familiar with these articles and the book?

With warm regards, peace, and love.

Thank you, very much.

Bruce Paine

[Peter25]

Thanks Bruce,

Yes indeed I was already aware on the macrobiotic views on bone-density and calcium intake. Besides that, I have four different articles made by non-macrobiotic related people that tell similar things. Including that more milk intake does most often not help in the fight against osteoperosis or even worsen the condition. I expect this to be true but it seems to me that my osteoperosis and those of some other people had a much different reason.

Perhaps it is because I still cannot digest the whole grains to a level that my body doesn't get undernourished. Perhaps the endless chewing, the stomach-massages, the one-hour walks and the longer cooking methods were not sufficient for me to digest the foods. I could be that my body wasn't giving up calcium because of an unbalanced diet but was simply consuming the bones because there was little fat and muscle left to consume. One person wrongly accused me of getting osteoperosis because he thought I had eaten too much animal food. Not such a weird thought if you consider the macrobiotic view on osteoperosis as written in those articles you reffered to. But in fact I had only eaten 70gr fish 2-3 times a week. Compare that to the tons of meat and dairy I ate prior to my 'macro' diet when still having strong bones. It seems to me that some people are focusing too much on excess as the cause of osteoperosis while in fact that is not always the cause (as also mentioned in one of the articles), especially for people who follow a macrobiotic way of eating. And furthermore, people who are young just like me can eat lots of protein/animal foods/dairy and stuff without getting osteoperosis.

A second possibility could be the sudden switch from animal-based calcium to plant-based calcium. My bones were almost completely build out of calcium from milk, and with the sudden switch to macrobiotics all this was left out. Suddenly my body had to take all its calcium from plantfoods, perhaps this was a problem for me.

I talked to one person who follows classes to become a cooking instructor and he told me he had met several women, aged somewhere in their menopause, who started macrobiotics and thereby got osteoperosis in a rapid rate. They were forced to return to the use of dairy in their diets. He pointed out that dairy is much easier to absorb/digest than the plant-food, that could be the reason (although this doesn't mean it's absorbed into the bones). He also said that the women are now no longer eating dairy, afters years of slowly cutting back on dairy their bodies have addapted (could this be the case for me too?). He himself as with many others switched to a macrobiotic diet without any problems and has been doing so succesfully for some decades.

Third reason, which is not really a third one but is still about the shortages/digestion, is hormones. The male hormones are essential for strong bone-density. Whener I try to get back on a macrobiotic diet the first thing I notice is a dramatic decrease of my sexual energy. In the last half year it was completely gone. The meat, fish, dairy and especially eggs have given my sexual energy back to me to a normal level. Could this be perhaps the reason why some long-term macro's have osteoperosis? I just find it hard to believe that one can have strong sexual energy by (nearly) only eating plant-foods. But then again, I'm now basing this idea on my own personal self and that is not the right thing to do.

Thanks Bruce, and others

Happy hugs,

Peter

[Bo.Engborg]

I think Peter has some valuable points, I too think that if you follow the "Kushi standard diet" there is a big risk of getting osteoporosis and other problems, not least in children. In the book "Raising Healthy Kids" by Michio and Aveline Kushi it is said that "Fish can be enjoyed occasionally by older children. A small portion of white meat, non-faty fish may be given from time to time, on an average of once a week".

I think this is a dangerous recommendation. From where is the children supposed to get omega 3 (fatty acid) for instance? About oils it is said "Oil is difficult to digest unless it is cooked with salt." That excludes flax seed oil which is sensitive to heat (and would be a possible source of omega 3).

Personally I eat much more fish and egg compared to the recommendations, and I feel much better from this. I also feel better when I avoid cows milk.

Bo Engborg

[Bo.Engborg]

Another thing on osteoporosis: coffee and black tea inhibits the ability to make use of calcium. Shouldn't be a problem if you are doing macrobiotics but I have heard rumours about macrobiotics drinking coffee :-)

- Bo E -

[Roy Collins]

Hi Bo. You're right, but not just coffee, cigarette smoking and carbonated beverages too!

Based strictly on observations of the natural world we can see that not all animal species eat fish or eggs in order to have strong bones. Deer, caribou, and gorilla for instance have very strong bones and eat grass, tree bark, moss, lichen, twigs, berries, herbs, nuts and leaves. Also many species of fish do not eat fish but rather plankton and other algae, etc. and maintain strong bones. Domestic cows eat no meat or fish but lots of grass and have strong bones, etc. For thousands of years vegetarians living around the globe and especially adherents of the religions of Jainism, Buddhism, Hindu forbid the eating of animal food. There is no widespread incidence of osteoporosis found in these groups.

In children world-wide osteoporosis is very rare, and those isolated cases of adolescent osteoporosis is usually due to absorption problems and/or result from use of steroid drugs for malfunctioning thyroid/parathyroid or other diseases. Osteoporosis is therefore a by-product of these diseases – most which occur in children who eat an omnivorious diet. In addition, the wonderful research work by Dr. Takuo Fujita on calcium shows evidence of calcium loss due to high levels of parathyroid hormone, or PTH: “since excess PTH remioves calcium from bone…bone mass decreases leading to osteoporosis.” (Fujita developed a high heat refining process on oyster shell and combined it with seaweed that has proven effective in preventing osteoporosis and can actually reverse bone loss….the product is all natural and is called AAACa – check with health food store…)

Based on this evidence we can ascertain that neither fish nor other animal food is a requirement for strong bones.

The problem with osteoporosis is more of absorption problem and hormonal problem than anything else. This can be proven from research that centers on poor calcium take-up from supplementation and from increased dairy consumption. Also we know estrogen hormone loss in women during menopause also leads to calcium absorption problems. In addition it has been proven that more calcium is absorbed by the body when less calcium is consumed!

Here is where it becomes important to eat a wide variety of land and sea vegetables, along with cultured soy products to make calcium more bioavailable for the body. I agree that a “little more” omega 3 oil from fish can aid in more calcium uptake to the body of the consumer but even the Fish Foundation of the UK agrees that fish need only to be eaten “once or twice weekly” to provide this. Flax is nature’s richest source of Omega-3 fatty acid but they also abundant in canola, sunflower and safflower oil. I believe that wild purslane is also a good source of Omega-3 fatty acid (Evening promrose and Borage oil are higher in Omega-6 ).

Eggs really do not fit prominately in the macrobiotic diet as they are too protein rich as well as too yang. Like with oil, more salt is needed to properly digest eggs. Very extreme food. If more protein is needed you can add more wild rice to the diet which has twice the protein as brown rice and also more whole soybeans which has more protein than beef. Fermented soy foods also increase calcium intake and help level estrogen levels. Flax seeds ground in a suribachi with dulse and a little spirolina algae makes a wonderful condiment and helps with Omega 3, B12 and protein and vitamin deficiencies.

I recently developed a delicious “Macro Milkshake” that utilizes cultured soy and brown rice which helps to increase natural bacterial and enzymatic actions in the intestine and increases uptake of calcium, protein and vitamins from whole food sources. I will post an article on how to culture soy within a few days. I feel this is an important addition to the macrobiotic diet for people who do not wish to eat too much animal food.

When choosing animal food the dictates of the environment and season need always to be considered. Generally speaking, more is used in the cold climates and less in the warm. Eating too much fish and eggs in a hot climate produces excess heat, protein and stores of urea which can lead to arthritis and heart problems. Eggs and dairy should be eating only on occasion as pleasure foods. They really are too extreme for daily consumption by any macrobiotic standard and are responsible for a multitude of mucous/fat/tumor related diseases.

It is important to realize that our bodies and needs have evolved over millions of years and throuh time these needs have changed dratically. In the modern era our bodies have attempted to adjust to various environmental and climatic changes and by making change over to macrobiotic food it is sometime difficult to properly process overly cooked/salted food. So making transition to macro diet requires a wider choice of vegetable, salads, fish and fruits, and more fermented soy -- especially miso, but also small amounts of daikon pickle as well. Chewing also should be more sustained to inheane more enzymatic action for proper digestion.

Many of us have come to macroworld with very damaged intestines and have weakend ability to absorb nutrients. Ginger compresses can also be benficial as an aid to help correct this. A rigid macro diet should only be used for extreme health problems and that should only be continued for a short period. I think the "standard macrobiotic diet" is suitable for most people inthe temperate climate but modification is always required depending on where one lives, their age, length of macro practice, physical constitution, work and leisure habits, etc.

Readers should note that Bo Enborg is the director of the macrobiotic association in Stockholm, Sweden. It is always nice to hear from you and to share your views. If possible please give us more information about he hand and foot acupuncture practice that you specialize in.

In peace, Roy

[Bruce Paine]

Roy,

What an excellent post!

I must however suggest that caution be used in purchasing canola oil as approximately 60% of canola oil produced and sold in North America is genetically modified (according to Alex Jack, author of "Imagine a World Without Monarch Butterflies" and "Saving Brown Rice" [ http://www.amberwaves.org ] ).

Bo,

Stockholm appears to be not that much colder that New England (R.I. and Boston) where both Roy and I reside .

How do you justify, consume, and balance eggs in your diet?

Peter,

Unless you are trying to single-handedly re-populate a community, region , nation, I don't think you should worry about the apparent loss of sex drive.

While it may be true that under a plant-based died you will not be experiencing a constant state of arousal (Oh, mygod, you'll start seeing women as people, first! [unless you are gay, and then being under a constant state of arousal is the key to your whole sexual identity! :-) ]) but you will be amazed how that old feeling comes right back once you are engaged in an intimate situation, with someone you feel attracted to (especially if that person responds to you!).

Thank you, very much.

With warm regards, peace, and love,

Bruce Paine

[Bo.Engborg]

My "justification" for eating eggs are simple, I feel much better when I do it. I have been doing macrobiotics since 1982 and I feel better nowadays since I increased eggs in the diet than ever before. I have noticed the same with quite a few other macro people here in Europe.

I think we have an egg revolution in the macro society ;-)


- Bo E -

[Peter25]

It's very interesting what you're saying Bruce,

I respect the way you're eating and I know it's your choice to follow this lifestyle. Still, reading this, I personally prefer to continue eating animal foods on a daily basis and have a 'normal' sexual energy just like most other boys and girls of my age. Especially considering that low testosteron values can lead to weaker bone-structure.

But then again, what is normal? It's the undeniable fact that some people in our western society have way to high sexual energy, leading to frustration, depression and in some cases rape. Perhaps you have to find your way somewhere in between these two extremes. Then it's just a matter of opinion what you consider as 'normal'. I can fully understand that you consider your own energy level as normal.

I find another example by looking at some of the traditional dutch farmers here in the rural area's. Many of these hard-working people have big strong bodies with thick arms and legs, thick bone-structure and lots of body-mass. They've been eating lots of meat, potatoes and dairy for many centuries, and I can pinpoint a few of them that have lived to above 90. These people would never have had this kind of strong constitution if they would have been raised macrobiotically. Then they would have looked more like the vietnamese farmers, with their thin arms and legs, and thin bone-structure. If they would engage into a hand-to-hand fight with these vietnamese, then one of them could easily take on three vietnamese. But if they would engage into a 10 mile run competition, the vietnamese would easily win.

So you see, I think it's very arrogant for someone to consider the macrobiotic diet as the only righteous diet. Not everything is better, some things are just different. It's where you put your priorities that is important. If Bo Engborg feels better by eating more eggs, then why critisize? If you realy think that everybody can balance him/herself without animal foods than you're simply executing macrobiotics as a belief, a religion. Some people have other needs in life. To fullfill those needs, you have to some degree push aside those macro-theories about climate and the 'wrongness' of certain foods, or else you might sicken yourself through arrogance.

I have seen people eating only plant-food for many years, and being completely healthy in their own way of life. I have great respect for that.

Take care,

Peter

[Roy Collins]

Peter wrote (in part):

>I find another example by looking at some of the traditional dutch farmers here in the rural area's. Many of these hard-working people have big strong bodies with thick arms and legs, thick bone-structure and lots of body-mass. They've been eating lots of meat, potatoes and dairy for many centuries, and I can pinpoint a few of them that have lived to above 90. These people would never have had this kind of strong constitution if they would have been raised macrobiotically.<

RC: Yes, Peter is correct in this observation. I noticed the same thing when I was in Amsterdam this past summer. Quite amazing to see both men and women with this big bone structure. The extremes of eating meat and potatoes certainly is due to these body types. The same goes for the Viet Cong who live in more tropical climate and eat more vegetable quality food, especially white rice. We can easy see here that we are becoming what we are eating! More big bone, larger body mass from eating more cow meat and expanded potatoes, and smaller bone, smaller frame from eating more grains, vegetables and fish. As to one Dutch taking on 3 Viet Cong, I would not be so sure. The US forces fought against Viet Nam for more than ten years and could not defeat them!

We are all free to look, feel and eat what we want, but larger bones does not always equate to more bone density. Osteoporosis afflicts people with all bone shapes and body mass forms. Osteoporosis means “hollow bones.” In other words you can have large or small bones and because of the inability to utilize calcium because of a number of reasons, your big or small bones can become hollow and thus brittle.

In peace, Roy

[Bruce Paine]

Bo,

You've answered part of my question, justifying your egg consumption but the rest of the question asks in what way do you consume eggs and how do you balance the yang energy in your diet and lifestyle?

Since the macrobiotic philosophy is all embracing (balancing yin and yang is possible in both wide and narrow approaches in which each person determines what is best for themselves), one can eat eggs and still maintain some form of equilibrium.

I'm interested in how YOU do it (do you drink coffee or beer, eat honey/maple syrup based desserts, drink/eat more raw fruit and vegetables, ingest psychoactive substances or what?).

Do you still eat whole grains, temperate climate vegetables, beans, sea vegetables, miso soup, etc.?

Eggzactly ( ;-) ) what do you do?

Peter,

While it is possible to eat a wide macrobiotic diet to include meat, dairy, and poultry, it is generally not recommended because of the difficulty of maintining one's equilibrium, and there are many more discharge/health problems to contend with.

You found that eating a strict macrobiotic diet like they serve and teach and the K.I. was detrimental to your health and well being and you've found that by eating more animal foods you have felt healthier, stronger, and balanced.

Are there any components of the macrobiotic diet and philosophy that you've found useful or have you returned to the Standard American Diet, wholeheartedly?

Have you read Annemarie Colbin's "Food and Healing:How what you eat determines your health, your well-being, and the quality of your life" (http://www.foodandhealing.com/books.htm )?

She describes (in the book's Introduction) how her husband, John, suffered from eating a vegetarian diet and how by including fish, chicken, duck and an occasional steak in his diet, his moods and strength improved (and in other parts of the book, she describes a number of dietary practices i[n great detail] to choose from).

Of course you must have read "Nourishing Traditions:The Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats"( http://www.newtrendspublishing.com/S...lon/index.html ) by Sally Fallon, he Founder of A Campaign for Real Milk (www.realmilk.com) and President of the Weston A. Price Foundation (www.westonaprice.org).

Roger Windsor , a longtime macrobiotic fringee and past publisher of the wholistic news magazine "Spectrum" featured an interview: "Breaking Free of Dietary Dogma" with Ms. Fallon in the magazine's September/October 1996 issue.

Rebecca Wood, who used to be heavily into macrobiotics now promotes the inclusion of meat, poultry, and dairy in her publications including "THE SPLENDID GRAIN: Robust Recipes for Grains with Vegetables, Fish, Poultry, Meat & Fruit" ( http://www.rwood.com/books.htm ).

While I avoid animal foods (except for an occasional pice of fish), I can see how others might feel the need to eat more meat, poultry, and dairy.

It's important to note however, that this is a macrobiotic forum where more emphasis is placed on the macrobiotic philosophy of yin and yang and it is probably the direction and practice of most of the subscribers of this list to follow a more plant based macrobiotic diet and I would be willing to guess that most here are happy with that direction, as I am.

If you are seeking conversations with many of the folks who have started eating more animal foods, and/or left macrobiotics or are considering it, why don't you start a discussion group over at Yahoo/Groups ( http://groups.yahoo.com/ )?

Thank you, very much.

With warm regards, peace and love,

Bruce Paine

[Roy Collins]

Hi Bo. I’m glad you are feeling better from eating eggs and fish on a daily basis but it is important to note that there are other whole food alternatives that will provide much of the nutrients found in animall food. We have to remember that the eggs you are eating comes from chickens and that chickens do not eat animal food. We know from the interesting work and discoveries of Louis Kevran (author Biological Transmutations) that one form of mineral does not necessarily remain the same once in the 98.6 F. walking furnace called the human body. Kevran proved that it was the organic mica (silica compound) that chickens peck from rocks that helped convert the eggshell into calcium. Corn products alone cannot produce and eggshell that is 100% calcium.

It is also extremely important to recognize the fact that acid blood takes calcium from bones and depletes the supply. That is why we need to eat more greens that are not over cooked as well as pressed salads and pickles. Green Plum extract in green tea is another strong alkalizer of blood. Of course if we get too yang from strict macro diet we begin to lose enzyme action in mouth, and digestive tract to extract calcium and other nutrients from all foods. Sugars and alcohol and white flour are the other big culprits in osteoporosis. We need to stress moderation in eating at all times to avoid these problems.

Here are some other reason from not eating eggs (as well as meat and dairy), compiled by Earthsave Foundation over many years:

+ Risk of death from heart attack for average American man: 50%
+ Risk of death from heart attack from the average American man who consumes no meat: 15%
+ Risk of death from heart attack for the average American man who consumes no, meat, dairy and eggs: 4%
+Amount you reduce your risk of heart attack by reducing your consumption of meat, dairy, eggs by ½: 45%
+ Amount you reduce your risk of heart attack by reducing your consumption of meat, dairy and eggs 100 %: 90%
+ Rise in high blood cholesterol from consuming 1 egg per day: 12%
+ Rise in heart attack risk from 12% rise in blood cholesterol: 24%
+Leading sourse of saturated fat and cholesterol of American diets: meat, dairy, eggs.
+ Amount of cholesterol in an average eggs: 275 mg
+ World populations with high meat intakes who do not have correspondingly high rates of colon cancer: NONE
+Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat daily compared to woment who eat meat less than once a week: 4 times higher
+ Increased risk of breast cancer who eat eggs daily compared to women who eat eggs less than once a week: 3 times higher
+Part of female chicken’s body that procuses eggs: Ovaries
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer who eat eggs 3 or more times a week compared to women who eat eggs less than once a week: 3 times higher
+Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meats, eggs, cheese, and milk daily compared to men who eat these foods sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times higher
+Diseases linked to excess protein consumptionL Osteoporosis and kidney failure
+Number of cases of osteoporosis and kidney failure in US: over 10 million
+The average measurable bone loss of female meat eaters at age 65: 35%
+The average measurable bone loss of female vegetarians at age 65: 18%
+ The meat, dairy and egg industries don’t tell us: the diseases which are commonly prevented, consistently improved, and sometimes cured by low-fat vegetarian diet include: stroke, kidney stones, prostate cancer, cervical cancer, diabetes, peptic ulcers, hiatial hernia, gallstones, irritable bowel syndrome, heart disease, breast cancer, pancreatic cancer, stomach cancer, hypoglycemia, constipation, diverticulitis, hypertension, salmonellosos, osteoporosis, colon cancer, ovarian cancer, endometrial cancer, kidney disease, hemmorhoids, obesity, asthma, thrichinosis.

Just something to think about before launching the coup...

[Bo.Engborg]

(Bruce wrote:
> I'm interested in how YOU do it (do you drink coffee or beer, eat honey/maple syrup based desserts, drink/eat more raw fruit and vegetables, ingest psychoactive substances or what?).

No coffee, beer (or other kinds of alcohol) about a glass per week, no honey, maple syrup less than once a month, rarely raw fruits (mainly apples and pears), raw salad daily, never tried any psychoactive substances.

Actually I have less cravings for sweet, yin stuff since I started eating more eggs and fish. I know this sounds contradictory to the theories... Maybe it was extreme yin becoming extreme yang?

>Do you still eat whole grains, temperate climate vegetables, beans, sea vegetables, miso soup, etc.?

Yes, I always eat miso soup when I eat eggs (since I eat both
for breakfast). I eat lots of vegetables, mainly from the surroundings, sea vegetables daily etc. I eat less bean than I did earlier.

When I eat eggs I am careful not to boil them to much, because that will make the cholestorol bad. Boiling them is my main way of eating them.

I am also very careful to choose eggs from organic chickens, who are allowed to go out. When chickens have a chance to choose, they are not vegetarians since they eat worms and bugs.


- Bo E -

[Peter25]

Roy,

I know that larger bones does not always equate to more bone density. I was merely using this example to explain that different is not always better.

And about those viet cong. Well, I was talking about hand-to-hand combat.

I want to thank all for your insights on these topics. I think this is where the discussion for me ends.

Best wishes,

Peter

[Roy Collins]

Hi Peter. Thanks again for your input and giving us the opportunity to exercise our minds so that we can put our macrobiotic principles and convictions to thest. It is always good to view opposing opinions and especially nice when we all able to agreeably disagree on whatever topic is presented. I agree that this subject on meat and calcium needs has reached the limits of discussion as well. Here are two additional articles relating to the current discussion on meat eating and calcium that may also be of value to the reader:

“Why Hindus Don’t Eat Meat”: http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/hinmeat.html

“The Calcium Myth”: http://www.moreinfo.com.au/avs/newve...mmyth_433.html

I hope this helps.

In peace, Roy