09-20-2006, 12:55 PM
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Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
I just baked my first loaf of leavened bread yesterday but since I have never had any experience with leavened bread of any kind I have no idea if it turned out the way it should. This is a photo of my loaf,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...Picture002.jpg I cooked it in my cast iron pan so that is why it has a round shape. It turned out very dense and thick but in my option, is still good to eat and satisfying, in fact my kids loved it! My five year old asked for slice after slice! The only one who didn’t enjoy it was my husband who said he wasn’t into “the wheat thing.” I have baked bread with store bought yeast and I keep thinking that my leavened bread didn’t rise enough? I let it rise for eight hours as the recipe stated, but does it look as if it rose properly? Is leavened bread supposed to be dense and thick or is it supposed to more closely resemble the texture of regular home baked breads? Thanks for any help you may be able to provide. Lil Miz      
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09-20-2006, 10:21 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
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Okay, Lil Miz, Congratulations on your first natural leaven loaf! Which recipe did you use? Tell us more about your husband. What does his diet consist of now? If his diet is too rich, he might not be hungry enough to appreciate whole grains and his taste buds might be dull. Depending on the generation of a sourdough culture, you might need to take longer to cold proof your dough. If it is a young sourdough, for sure, but if you have produced many, many batches of bread with your culture then the proofing time will lessen. Jacques de Langre who baked bread regularly for decades, developed a culture that produced a dough ready to bake in a couple of hours. Bread that is unleavened in a brick form, will be almost as hard as a rock; first generation culture bread proofed for eight hours may be somewhat dense, so when working with young cultured batches of dough, you will need to proof the dough for longer periods of time (and if you don't want the bread to have a distinctly strong sourdough taste then you will want to knead the dough after eight hours to release the excess gas). You should sample some other baker's natural leavened bread to get an idea about what's possible. Have you been to one of the Essential Baking Company outlets? Read this about artisan baking companies on Seattle. If you can afford it, you could have Lynn Gordon send you one or more of her natural leavened breads if you want macro quality. Make sure that the bread is unsliced! Happy baking and/or sampling! Thank you, very much. Bruce Paine
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09-21-2006, 01:35 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
Hi Bruce-
I used this recipe for the leaven: http://www.cybermacro.com/recipes8.html letting it sit for three days. I wasn’t sure if I was suppose to stir it everyday so I did, hope that was right. Then I used this recipe from the book Nourish, by Holly Davis for the bread, Crusty Sesame Sourdough Loaf 3 1/3 whole-wheat flour 3 ½ oz sesame seeds, lightly toasted 2 teas sea salt 1 cup filtered water 1 cup leaven olive oil combine flour @ seeds mix salt and water pour leaven into flour and mix knead mix adding saltwater turn onto floured board and knead rest for 10 min brush heavy pan with olive oil roll dough to length of pan and place dough in pan oil top of loaf leave to rise, covered with a damp cloth for 4 to 8 hours preheat oven to 400 bake for 45 min cool on rack (I let it rise for the 8 hour time period.) My leaven is new since I just made it. Right now I have it stored in the fridge in a glass jar with holes poked in the lid. Is that right? I read two sets of directions, to leave it in airtight container and to put it in container with ventilation. Can you tell me what is correct? That is what I thought- (about it needing to rise more.) Do you think next time I should let it rise all night? Once I gage how long it takes to rise will it most likely take that long next time or will each time get faster? Just curious. My husband is non- MB, and I don’t see him changing his eating habits, so that is pretty much the deal there. He eats every thing from junk food, fast food, ect. He says he has never liked the “wheat” flavor in breads so maybe in the future I will try more non-wheat flours, but if he doesn’t care for any of it then that is the way it will be. I won’t get anywhere with trying to force it upon him. I am hoping that I will get better at my MB cooking then find some very tasty, in his option, dishes that will change his mind about the satisfaction of healthier foods. My kids however, are more open to healthier options than I would have guessed. We will see what happens in time. Thank you for your help. Lil Miz 
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09-22-2006, 01:35 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
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Lil Miz, Take the starter, add some more flour to it, divide it in half, put each half in separate containers one with the ventilated top and one sealed and check out the results from breads you make from each! The following is some baking instruction from Jacques de Langre: Simple and healthier breadmaking The nutritional and better absorption/assimilation of whole grain bread made with natural starter (sourdough) leavener instead of commercial yeast are numerous and of great importance to the health-seeker. In many technical and medical writings, the two techniques of baking: natural sourdough leaven and commercial bakers yeast are often confounded and contradicted. It is the aim of this paper to clear up this confusion. All of the benefits of natural starter and all of the clearly detrimental effects of commercial yeasted bread are thoroughly exposed and discussed in the forthcoming 1981 edition of "Breads Biological Transmutations". Many of these findings are quite recent and supported by scientific evidence and clinical studies. Baking By Principle. The aim of breadbaking is to transform the various nutrients obtained from fresh-milled whole grain flour in a way that best facilitates their absorption. To do this effectively, life's laws must be respected through all of the transformation of matter that affect our nutrition.It is important for the bread to retain the vital and dynamic qualities that animate the grain throughout its life: Germination, growth and maturity. Starter Leaven-A Definition. True starter leaven is obtained from the wild or spontaneous ferments that exist in the air. This micro-macro-flora consists of a multitude of micro-organisms in symbiosis - a mutually beneficial association. False Leaven. In attempts to make sourdough bread - for its characteristic taste and to please customers who request natural leavened bread, -professional bakers and bread process researchers have often begun a primary starter with minimal amount of commercial yeast to get it going, or simply by holding back a certain quantity of yeasted sourdough from the previous days baking. This, in no way, duplicates the health benefits of true benefits of true natural sourdough leaven and is actually injurious to health is the same way yeasted bread is. Easy Method for First Starter. Making a true leaven First Starter is much easier and failproof than most beginners and long-time yeast bakers imagine. The myths that urround starter-type breadmaking fall apart when one bakes by principle. RULES: 1.Use only fresh ground flour from organic sources. 2. Grind the flour fairly coarse and only on natural stones. 3. Milling of the coarse flour should be controlled so that the temperature within the flour does not rise above 96 degrees F. (To preserve the heat-sensitive delicate enzymes). 4. Use untreated well or spring water. Fluoride, chlorine, ionized or distilled will not promote ferments. 5. Mix 1 cup of cold water to 1/2 cup of fresh coarse ground flour. Do not add salt, oil or least of all: yeast. Knead the mixture until a smooth consistency develops. 6. Place the resulting mixture in a clean (scalded) wooden bowl or earthenware crock covered loosely with a clean cotton cloth in an area that is well venhilated but free of draft, cool and dark but not not refrigerated unless inside building temperature is above 90 F. Stir mixture with with a scalded spatula every day for three days. 7. After three days of cool storage, starter will have acquired a beer-like fragrance, display some bubbles or if dry will show superficial fine cracks. 8. From this point on, the starter may be kept in an airtight close jar and refridgerated. It no longer requires air in order to live. The starter does require periodic feeding with fresh flour or usuage in bread along with refreshing or renewing. Deep Freeze: For inactive storage periods up to 3 or 4 weeks, it is possible to store the starter in a deep freeze. In any prolonged periods of inactivity, the only danger is that the starter will acquire an excess of acidity or that the acid will turn to acetic acid instead of lactic acid. (Lactic acid is friendly to our organism, acetic is not.) Thawing out and Use of Deep Frozen Starter. It is important to completely thaw out out the starter before use in bread and to avoid rushing the process. Under no circumstance should hot water be used to thaw it out as this would destroy the enzymes and kill the starter action. Be sure to feed and remix the starter every time it is thawed out. Starter Functions. Definition: A starter is a bread leavening agent that contains a wide spectrum of wild biological ferments, mold and digestive enzymes, all contributing to the health of the intestinal flora. Primary Function: The starter serves to change the raw elements of wheat and other cereal grains into ready nutrients, more easily absorbed by the body. Auxilary Role: The combined action of the wild ferments and enzymes maintained within the starter added to the enzymes existing in the freshly ground whole flour are creating heat and energy that will aerate and leaven the bread harmoniously. Bonus Benefits: Among the multitude of elements present within the starter-leavened bread, some combine to insure the breads keeping qualities while others serve to improve its taste during the aging. (While yeasted bread loses its taste quite rapidly after baking and actually becomes toxic*, the natural leavened bread increases its healing powers as well as its flavor and taste.) *For a complete discussion of this important difference, the reader is invited to consult "Breads Biological Transmutations" published by Happiness Press 14351 Wyclif, P.O.Box DD, Magalia, CA 95954. Making Starter Bread. Dissolve of the starter in 1 cups of cold spring water, add 2 to 3 cups of fine ground flour and mix until a smooth consistancy is obtained. Store this batter for 12 hours in a wood or earthenware at a low temperature (68degrees F. - 16 to 18 degrees C.). Cover with a clean cotton cloth and keep away from drafts. The above is called the Chef, it is an intermediary step between the starter and the final bread dough. Note that it contains no salt and no oil or other additives. For smaller quantities, the proportions can be halved. To 1 lb. Of Chef, add 1 to 2 quarters of water and 4 to 5 pounds of fresh ground flour (Fine Ground). Begin to knead without salt. Weigh the amount of dough being formed and add 1 per cent of that weight in unrefined salt, either in crystals or fine powder. Continue to knead for 15 to 20 minutes so as to completely dissolve and absorb the salt. Allow the dough to rest one half hour. Separate the dough into loaf-size pieces. Keep in mind that the bread pans should only be full. Lightly oil the pans using either corn or sesame oil. Roll the dough balls in flour, mold them into the pans and cover with a clean cotton cloth. Place the covered bread pans in a moist area at a temperature of 75 to 80 F. Until they double in size (3 to 6 hours). Baking: The purpose of the heat of baking is to transform the starches into dextrin. A sufficiency of heat must be available to accomplish this purpose fairly rapidly without scorching or burning the bread loaves. Preheat the Oven to 400 degrees F. Remove the cotton covers make sure that the room in which the oven is located is free from drafts or cold air. Place the bread pans without delay in the center of the oven andclose the door tightly and quickly. After 15 minutes, lower the temperature to 325 F. After hour, open the door and check the color of the crust. At this time it should be possible to quickly remove the the bread from their pans and place them alone on the wire racks for better browning. (If they should stick, disregard this and oil & flour them better the next batch around.) Cooling: When the bread is correctly baked, it should have an even color on all surfaces, underside as well as on top. The shade of brown is near fresh-sawed redwood. This bread will keep without refridgeration up to one month. But to accomplish this quality, the bread must be cooled in an energetic draft and all surfaces exposed to the air. This is best down on a wooden rack with the loaves standing on edge. When completely cooled, wrap in kraft brown paper or in white paper sacks. Do not use plastic bags as the bread must breathe. If mold (green spots) develop during storage, these are the children of the bread and consist of natural penicillin, and will disappear when bread is paced in a warm oven for a few minutes. Question: Why does the Natural Leaven Bread taste Sour? Answer: The action of the ferments of life bring the naturally leavened bread within the optimal biological zone, which is slightly acid. If the bread has acquired a decidedly strong acid taste, it contains acetic acid. This often happens in commercial sourdough breads and is detrimental to the health. The mild sourness, however, belongs to the beneficial lactic acid and is characteristic of the true leaven bread. This taste stabilizes itself after a few hours and thus should not be thought of as stale bread too old for consuming. Question: Bran rich bread is known to deconstipate immediately. Why does natural leaven bread appear at first not to effect the same quick deconstipating action? Answer: Much of the popularity of whole grain bread is due to its roughage and its power to quickly scour the colon. When the whole grain bread is of the yeasted variety, most of this roughage -being undigested by fermentation- is still in its abrasive state and stimulates elimination by mechanical scouring action. The very abrasiveness which has temporarily relieved the problem soon creates another one: inflamation of the colon. True starter leavened bread owes its permanent regulating action to the biological action of its ferments that alone possess the power to regenerate the intestinal flora. These same ferments also restore the peristatic action and the flexibility of the colon. While this cure is not as spetacular as the non-predigested high-roughage diet, it has a much more lasting and beneficial biological quality. Question: Why does Naturally Leavened Bread appear not to contain any bran particles and yet retains a dark brown color within the inside crumb as well as the crust? Answer: The micro-organisms of the natural leaven have in effect digested the bran flakes to such a degree that they totally disappear. All the nutrients of the bran coats have been retained, however, and this accounts for the dark coloring inside the loaf. This color is the evidence of the use of natural leaven: that of creating a physiochemical tranformation of the elements within the dough, in order to obtain a predigestation of the nutrients. This results in a total assimilation of these nutrients by the human organism. Question: Is there a way to simplify the Starter Bread Method of Baking even further than that outlined above? Answer: Yes, there are numerous ways of using Natural Leaven, for as long as the rules for making the starter are carefully observed. For instance, the Chef could be completely eliminated, thus mixing the cup of starter directly into the 4 to 5 lbs. of fresh ground flour. In this latter case, it is better to increase the amount of starter to 1 full cup. (From an 2 double paged leaflet published by Jacques deLangre sometime before or after 1981. Jacques taught about natural leavened bread, Celtic sea salt, Do-In, George Ohsawa, and macrobiotics. I met him in 1980. Jacques died from the result of an automobile collision in Nov. 28, 1993)" Regarding your husband and his rigidity...maybe he needs to have a completely new experience, one that he did not expect to have. Let's say a creative woman got her husband and kids excited about going on a camping trip somewhat removed from civilization and while they were camping, there was only macrobiotic food and no access to the other food. People are finicky until they are really starved and then they can eat anything edible with gusto. The creative wife would need to find out from the local car mechanic what auto part that is easy to remove and hard to notice when first looking under the hood, that would disable that vehicle, and then do the deed when the spouse and kids are asleep in the woods (hiding it somewhere that hungy, crazed campers would not look!). Get twice as many food storage containers of the same size and color and pack half of the group of containers with the macrobiotic foods (secretly and store them somewhere close to the vehicle that the husband and kids would not be likely to look), and the the night before going to bed have everyone pack the empty containers with the S.A.D. foods that they want and then when they have all gone to sleep, sneak out and play the old switcheroo but including enough S.A.D. snacks for the car trip to the woods. Imagine being way deep in the country far from any food store, gas or auto repair station, nor places where people live or work (and no park rangers, either!). The family wakes up to find Mom cooking a macrobiotic breakfast and if the husband declines and goes to the car to drive somewhere to get real food and finds the car undriveable, then he's going to get very hungry and be willing to eat anything to keep his energy up. After cooking breakfast, the wife could take a hike (and should take water and good energy snacks) and if her husband comes back to camp hungry and she has gone off hiking, then he will need to eat breakfast to have enough energy to come after her and if she take a circuitous route back to camp to cook lunch then he will come back from the long hike, again hungry and she will have him eating two macrobiotic meals in a row and the longer she can keep him from talking to her about this predicament that he did not choose, the longer she can get him used to and appreciating the macrobiotic food. That is one way to get an otherwise unwilling spouse to eat differently and learn to appreciate the new foods. Viewing movies like Empire of the Sun where the characters learn to appreciate simple things and any food that is available, might be another way to get closed minds and hearts to open. One macrobiotic person in a marriage is tough and also common in the macrobiotic movement and you either learn to accept it or you find very creative ways to attract the non-macrobiotic person to macrobiotics. Why did you get involved in eating this way, and how has it affected you or influenced you? If your husband loves you enough to share this life with you until death do you part then maybe he will listen to your story how you came to this way of doing things, eating etc. My experience is that eating macrobiotically makes me more open and vulnerable to the world and then I am able to change and have new experiences, including opening my heart and getting closer to other people. So if your husband is emotionally shut down so that he can't hear what you have to say about your experience of life, and if he can't identify with anything that you tell him about you, then maybe you need to do something to help him to open up, understand you, and your needs. Share your feelings and experience with him and if he truly is your husband, then eventually he will come around and maybe if you can share what benefits you are having with macrobiotic foods and the life, he will open up to that sphere as well. Thank you, very much. Bruce Paine Last edited by Bruce Paine; 09-26-2006 at 02:23 PM.
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09-24-2006, 04:35 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
Oh Dear - Bruce you give lots of good info, but not the best relationship advice. I don't believe dishonesty ever serves a relationship well. Respecting the other person and where they are on the road of life is ideal. Non-judgment is ideal.
Now don't misunderstand - we can't all live on the ideal level - real life does interfere. We do have expectations from others and disappointed when they're not met - and as LilMiz already understands, one really can't force anything on another person - they must realize it on their own. Knowing from my own experience, the more someone tries to force something on me, even if it's for my own good, the more I resist. And force it deceitfully, forget it - I wouldn't want to be around when the fireworks go off!!!!! For Lil Miz, don't get too stuck on bread - whole grains will give you much more mileage!!!!! Klara
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09-24-2006, 09:18 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
Gee, Klara,
Aparently, you read or only focused on part of my post. I gave Lil Miz a number of solutions, each one different! What's dishonest about watching a movie about hunger and appreciation of what one has before them? Communicating what your experience and feelings to your spouse or partner, what's wrong with that? Just because I used more words to describe one of the possible solutions does not mean that it is any more useful or appropriate to the situation. And regarding honesty, you are always honest, and forthright, right? Thank you, very much. Bruce Paine
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09-25-2006, 01:28 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
Hello Bruce-
And thank you so much for your excellent information!!! I always look forward to your posts and learn so much. I printed all the Simple and healthier breadmaking, by Jacques de Langre out. I have been having problems finding “good” info such as what you have given. It seems that many recipes for sourdough has commercial yeast included, which is a real disappointment. I did find the Village Baker by Joe Ortiz at the library and that seems the best book that I have found so far for leavened breads. Do you know of any more? I have to say your “creative woman” idea had me chuckling, imagining my husband running around in the woods franticly trying to get to the nearest McDonalds. Sometimes I do feel that is what it would take to have my husband eat MB, but we will see. I also think a trip to the doctor might be of interest because if he sees that his health is on the line, better eating might be more important to him. He comes from a family where the only thing in food that matters is “taste” and if it doesn’t taste “good” in their opinion then it is not good and good luck on them eating it! His mom not so much, but she caters to what his dad and they like. Understanding this I know that is what he has been subjected to and is used to his whole life. Luckily he is not rude as to put down food that I make that he doesn’t care for, mostly because of blandness, but just won’t eat it. I know there are a lot of little tricks I could try but to be honest, which it is probably a fantasy, I would like my husband to come to the conclusion that he would like to improve his eating and diet and not that it is all my idea. I won’t ever give up on it even if it may seem that way to him, or others that don’t see me as being as forceful about it. I guess that is my way of being sneaky, pretty silly huh. The Empire of the Sun movie was also an excellent idea and talking about our future together and how eating right might be a part in years together. For a wedding present I asked my husband to quit smoking, which he did with success, so he knows how much his health means to me. If he decides that he never wants to do MB I think I will be ok with it because I feel it is his choice and he doesn’t force me into things so I respect him on that too. I really appreciate your thoughts and ideas you have been a great help to me and these changes I am trying to make. Lil Miz
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09-25-2006, 01:37 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
Hi again Bruce-
I forgot to ask in my last post, from Jacques de Langre's Simple and healthier Breadmaking, in the Rules part #6, It says, "Stir mixture with a scalded spatula every for three days." Is that suppost to say Stir mixture with a scalded spatula everyday for three days, or Stir mixture with a scalded spatula every three days? Thanks -Lil Miz
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09-25-2006, 01:48 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
Hi Klara-
I guess I am stuck on bread at the moment, (smile,) but I always get that way when I am trying to learn something, then when I learn it then I just incorporate it into my life. I know there must be a medical condition for this strange behavior, when you concentrate on a single thing like a crazy person, but I can’t think of it at the moment. Luckily I do move on though. Take care, Lil Miz 
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09-25-2006, 02:30 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
Lil Miz,
Not strange - actually quite wonderful - I believe rather than calling it a medical condition, call it being quite focused, and mastering a skill - I don't see anything wrong with that at all. I recall you posting that you haven't been at this mb way for that long, so have patience, both for yourself and your husband - mb does NOT have to be bland, even healing foods. There are two factors though, one is you just need more experience and perhaps a good cooking teacher, and two, as long as your husband eats wider, his taste buds just won't be on the same level as yours. Are you familiar with Macrobiotics Today? A few issues back, there was a wonderful article regarding someone cooking for her non-mb father. You can order back issues here at the shop - Gary, do you know which issue I'm talking aout? Klara
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09-26-2006, 11:13 AM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
Klara-
That article sounds great and could be a big help. You are right I really haven’t been at MB very long so I do try and keep that in mind. Sometimes things I find not bland, my husband finds bland even before I started MB, so hopefully I can find some happy medium. I am interested in that back issue if anyone knows exactly which one I need to get. Thank you- Lil Miz
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09-26-2006, 03:22 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like? (Hi again, Bruce!)
Lil Miz,
I pulled out the original recipe and discovered that it said "Stir mixture with with a scalded spatula every day for three days.", so you will notice that I corrected the recipe in my post. Something interesting that I'm finally realizing is that there are two types of natural leavened bread: 1. Natural leavened bread made with a starter (sourdough, chef, or desem) and 2. Natural-rise bread (natural leavened bread made from scratch) Three excellent books on baking natural leavened bread: 1. The Bread Book:A Natural, Whole-Grain Seed-To-Loaf Approach To Real Bread by Thom Leonard (used to be $8.95, new!) 2 Breadtime Stories: A Cookbook for Bakers and Browsers: by Susan Jane Cheney and 3. The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book: A Guide to Whole-Grain Breadmaking: by Laurel Robertson A fourth book: Bread's Biological Transmutations: The Changes in Food Grains from the Wheatfield to the Stone Mills through the Bakery Ovens and life-giving Energy is out of print (I have a copy and am interested in distributing copies of it). Thank you, very much. Bruce Paine
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09-28-2006, 02:10 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
Hi again Bruce-
Thank you for the bread books. When you say you are interested in distributing copies how much would that cost? That is really interesting, that there are two different types of leaven bread. So I am guessing one gets its yeast in the mixing and doesn’t have any yeast added? That would be the natural leavened bread. Have you tried the natural leavened bread? Lil Miz
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09-29-2006, 03:06 PM
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Re: Is This What Leavened Bread Looks Like?
Quote:
Presently I'm talking to the widow of the co-author of that book to find out what I can do. It appears that the publisher of the book has no funds to get the book reprinted, so I'm interested in either putting the book in a pdf file and having it sold online or maybe just providing the book online for free, but I would need the publisher's permission before doing any of those things. All breads that rise need (natural agents) fungi like yeasts and molds or (chemical agents) baking soda to produce the gas that causes flour to expand. Natural leavened breads can be made without flour based starters like chef, desem, and sourdough using fermented agents like fruit, vegetables and grains, as well as seasonings like soy sauce and miso and also just from mixing the flour with water and salt. Once the dough has expanded and fermented enough to have become innoculated with the yeasts and/or molds, a piece can be broken off to keep and cultivate for future batches of bread and this piece can be the beginning of your sourdough culture. Otherwise, one can continue baking breads using first generation fermented materials (ferment a food, and mix with or use a fermented food as the agent to start leavening a batch of dough). I have baked breads using just a fermented food such as miso, fermented brown rice, or amasake and I have also made starter cultures and developed them through the continued bread baking process. Do you understand the difference, now? Thank you, very much. Bruce Paine
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