[Ilanit]

Here are some private discussions submitted here with persmision that discuss the topic of the first chat here....

Hi Benjamin,

Benjamin wrote:

> Dear Ilanit:
>
> Just read (skimmed) the chat session. I was impressed by the great variety of definitions of what macrobiotic is


yep

> and what illness is. However, I am rather shocked that an MB counselor who has guided hundreds of others through life and death issues would set a bad example


who are we to define what anyone should or shoult not eat. There are many factors at play - everyone has free choice

> by eating jelly doughnuts or binge on fried bread.


it was probably sourdough! ;-)

kidding - there are many factors - we can never know the full picture.

> Even more so, I am deeply disappointed

if we put people on pedestals or make them separate then we are bound to be disappointed.

did you read my comments and points to Ginat today?

> to hear that Ginat Rice panicked when she got breast cancer and submitted to surgery.

maybe it was a conscious choice. I don't think it would be my choice but people see things from different vantage points - we can't walk in anyone elses shoes - being macrobiotic is no guarantee of anything - of how one will respond, what the outcome of anything will be.

it is an understanding not a destination and we all want guarantees in life. HAving expectations and attachments seems to be the biggest source of stagnation and degeneration - that was her POINT

> Even more so, that she submitted to chemotherapy, when she knew damn well that is was destructive. On the other hand, she was right to diagnose her mental state correctly by saying that she was too arrogant and thought that she would never get cancer.


the root cause of all dis-ease is arrogance. We don't like that term in the West because of its connotations but Ohsawa the founder of modern macro saw it as separation from the laws of nature - thinking we are outside them or beyond them. That we are not the cause of our dis-ease - that is very different from blame though. We are not to blame - but we did create it - somehow - which is liberating because it means we can turn it around. In the west we are conditioned to believe we have no power - when in fact we have all power

> But she clearly lacks realy empathy when cannot feel the terror that her clients feel.

maybe that is true compassion. It is one thing to commiserate with someone and make their drama and dis-ease real. That gets no one nowhere fast. What is healing and transformative it to listen to where the person is at, hold the space and then be the invitation to change. That is true healing.

> There is no excuse for that. Period.


I never got that inerpreations from her by a long shot. Not at all. Quite the opposite.

> By the way, unless I am mistaken, I notice that you did not participate in the chat. Am I right?


it was 4am here. What's your excuse?! ;-)

actually I was still pacing the halls at 3am then feel into a sleep not long after and awoke at 5. next time!


xoxoxo

Ilanit
Hi Benjamin,

Benjamin wrote:

> Dear Ilanit:
>
> Well, let's be civil


was I not civil?!!!! :-)

I was just sharing my opinion - which is all that it is. You asked to have your opinion listened to about various matters and of course I respect that. I have had a lot of years to grapple with these issues and I was just sharing where I am at with it. I thought I could do that.

> about this and just agree to disagree.


sure.

> My attitude is simply that there is a world of difference between a person following an MB lifestyle

if people follow a mb lifestyle they will become sheople like the rest of the population. It is a lifestyle to be led, practised and embraced. Semantics? maybe? just a slight difference

> and a professional MB counselor who, essentially, advises others in matters of life and death.

yes that is a good point. One should be able to pracise what one teaches. I feel too that it is important to be honest with where one is at - I would rather that in a councelor that hidden binging which is a huge problem with long term too narrow interpreation of mb and which I have seen a lot of problems with - that is one reason for my excitement about Shiitake Jones - humour and joy needs to be rediscoverd and the problems need to be talked about - sometimes humour is a good avenue for that.

> If he or she cannot set an example for her own clients,


macor councelors - unless they are ill - should be eating a healing diet day in and out - there is a vast difference between a cleansing and healing diet and one to sustain certain lifestyle, pregnancy, growing children etc.

Ohsawa said honesty - will self and others is a prime marker of health - deep health. Of course that included honesty about one's relationship with jam donuts. Denial and restriction is the first step to dancing with the devil or with eating donuts in a cupboard.

it is an issue in the mb community. As is coffee and smoking!!! yes - I know - horrible - I make no excuses for that - even though it is not mine to make - there are many factors - historical and otherwise and it would be a lengthy discussion i am not up to - just thought I would point it out -

however NON of these factors - the human factors detract from the beauty and power that is MB - people cannot take that away from it - from the laws of nature!

and it is not an excuse to lose faith in the path or your own ability to heal.

> then he or she has failed.


I read a beautriful article by a mb coucelor who died of throat cancer about what healing is - Murry Snyder. It really showed me what healing can be. What is failure? what is healing? I know they are not the words you want to hear when you are healing - you want to hear all the good stuff. Of course - I do too - I am not denying that at all. But I also see from years of frustrated healing that to really get to the roots of it - one has to examine him/herself honestly and see th Truth as it is - not what they want to see.

> And I believe that Ginat Rice failed.


she is alive. She is happy. She is vibrant. She is thriving. She is open. She has learned. She has experienced.

have I failed because I need insulin injections to survive the day? Maybe. I did think so for a very long time. I still do I guess deep down. But I also realise that it takes whatever it takes. It is only us humans that say this is good. That is bad. God or whoever is in charge of this crazy place - doesn't judge things like that. I put things in categoried - natural fibres are good. Nylon is bad. But if God made everything - didn't he make the nylon too?! I know it is not logic in a way - and I am not buying nylon. Same as I am not buying Diet coke - but because I cHOOSE not to. Not because I am afraid of it or what it will do. Well that is what I like to think. Of course I have judgements on it and that is why if I did drink it it would probably affect me.

this way deeper than I wanted to get and covers so much. For another time - it doesn't matter. Lets just get well and happy!

> Of course, we are all human, and she discovered her fallibility and humanity and vulnerability in the course of her own life and death experience. I can have compassion for her. Of course. But I have also in the process lost some of my respect for her.

I am sure she can live with it!

> On the other hand, to be fair to her, if she has saved hundreds of people over the years by giving them expert MB advice, then I obviously must respect that and give her full credit for her good deeds.
>

Ilanit

Dear Ilanit:

Great comments by you, Ilanit. I am not sure which is more glorious or better defines what it means to be human: judging or not judging. Personally, I have always been called "judgmental" because I am, and I am just as convinced that "judging" is a key to a health and meaningful life as others are convinced that "non-judging" is. Naturally, both "judging" and "non-judging" have a long history and need to be qualified ad nauseaum, especially in practice, for it to make sense.

However, in the interest of moving on with our lives, let's agree to disagree. I understand where you are coming from, especially the Eastern, Buddhist notion of "non-judging", and I think you know where I am coming from. I firmly believe that neither "non-judging" nor "judging" is in itself necessarily a sign of health or disease. But let's leave this subject where it is. There is no real answer except, once again, to agree to disagree, both in terms of our moral and aesthetic position and practical attitude.

But your points are very well taken. I have deleted the post (both my original remarks and your comments) so that we can start with a clean slate. Let me just say that there is an obvious difference between empathy and compassion. Ginat Rice deserves our compassion as a vulnerable, all too human being. We all deserve that. But empathy is another thing altogether and has to be earned. By all of us.

Love,

Benjamin



Ilanit